A Trail Discussion...of sorts...

[Mitch]

Chris,

Sorry you got dumped! Don't take it personally, It's about who you agree with here. Peteyg, Josh, come cruise the High Desert and enjoy yourself! No police needed here. So many policing comments from those who were not there or didn;t catch on to the reason this got started.

Mitch

[womb raider 940]

I need a runnin jeep first bud.

[peteyg]

One thing that I thought should be mentioned...

Show me ONE single documented case of a trail getting closed because of alcohol. Just one.

Trails get closed because of weeds, stupid little lizards, turtles, and in the case of Tellico, trout. None of those are alcohol related.

JV is not getting taken away because they think we drink too much out there. It's getting taken because the Marines want to blow it up. Again, show me where alcohol is involved.

I'm not saying that it doesn't paint a bad picture, but using it as an excuse to promote a totalitarian ideal is missing the mark.

If you truly believe that everyone who drinks is an out of control alcoholic (like Nailer), or an irresponsible immature and uncontrollable child (like Blain), then you must promote the ideal of zero tolerance and no compromises as is being thrown out here.

I ran into Tam last night at Wal-Mart. I like Tam a lot, and we have always gotten along. We actually see each other around town quite a bit. Just because we may disagree on a certain point does not mean we're automatically enemies that must avoid each other. There are some here who I will exercise my right to not wheel with, but the odds are good that we wouldn't get along all that well on the trail, anyway, regardless of whatever gets spouted here on the intar-web.

I've found, as a wheeler, that finding people that you get along with to wheel with is just like anything else. Not everyone gets along, and just because you own a Jeep does not automatically mean that you have to be friends with everyone else who owns a Jeep. It's the same in real life. We don't like everyone we work with, either, but the difference is you don't have a choice in who you work with, for the most part, but you do have a choice in who you choose to associate with after work.

Wheeling is NOT WORK. It's FUN and relaxing and a HOBBY. If it starts to feel like work, then I'll find something else to do, because I already have a job. And no, working in the "industry" does not qualify as making wheeling your 'job"...sorry Tam, that just isn't true...even though I don't work for 4WP anymore, I'm still pretty active in the "industry", and I don't consider myself to be at work while out wheeling. Again, I already have a job. I want to relax when I'm away from it. Being around those who feel like it should be work detract from that.

[NAILER341]

If you truly believe that everyone who drinks is an out of control alcoholic (like Nailer)

that's cute. nice job on the finger pointing. i believe that is the first comment directed at a particular person. im honored you chose me.

i am a self proclaimed out of control drinker. i don't go around passing judgment on other folks that drink as to whether or not they are in control, as i really couldn't give a rats ass.

i have plenty of friends that drink regularly and are normal social drinkers. i also have plenty of friends that don't drink at all, either because it never appealed to them, or they realized like myself that it keeps landing them in jail.

i am hardly the person that chooses friends by whether or not they have a drink once in a while. i will however spend less time with those that are hardcore drinkers, but that is for my own selfish reasons.

my point is clear, and that is the fact that it has no place on the trail while on trail runs. nothing more nothing less. party your ass off at camp until you shit your pants

[peteyg]

You said:

the only people disagreeing with the comments made by blaine, chris, tam, nick, etc... are those that like to have their drinks on the trail.

the bottom line is they know it is wrong in the eyes of the law....

Wrong: It is illegal to drive while intoxicated, and it is illegal to drive with an open container. A crushed can in the back in a trash bag does not qualify as open container.

Then you became judgemental:

and they know the majority of them fit into the "wont only have one while on lunch and not driving the jeep" category, but prefer to use that as a justification of their actions.

there are those that will only have one with lunch because they just love the flavor of the colt45 running down the back of their throat. those are in the minority.

That's pure bullshit, and it shows that you have a bias to believe that most people who drink are irresponsible and borderline alcoholics

Then you said:

to be up front about all of this, i happen not to drink at all. (any more) this however doesn't make judgmental of those that do drink responsibly.

Those two statements do not jibe. You have already judged those who choose to responsibly enjoy a tasty cold beverage with lunch as uncontrollable. You then try, again, to say that you have some sort of moral responsibility to take responsibility for my actions, which is also pure bullshit. Again, I neither need or want you to feel like you need to in some way babysit me, and your attitude that you feel you must is exactly like a liberal democrat who feels like the need to pass a law to save me from myself.

Keep trying, though.

[NAILER341]

You said:



Wrong: It is illegal to drive while intoxicated, and it is illegal to drive with an open container. A crushed can in the back in a trash bag does not qualify as open container.

Then you became judgemental:



That's pure bullshit, and it shows that you have a bias to believe that most people who drink are irresponsible and borderline alcoholics

Then you said:




Those two statements do not jibe. You have already judged those who choose to responsibly enjoy a tasty cold beverage with lunch as uncontrollable. You then try, again, to say that you have some sort of moral responsibility to take responsibility for my actions, which is also pure bullshit. Again, I neither need or want you to feel like you need to in some way babysit me, and your attitude that you feel you must is exactly like a liberal democrat who feels like the need to pass a law to save me from myself.

Keep trying, though.

read into it what you like, that is your option. too bad it is misconstrued.

i am a true liberal democrat.

[peteyg]

read into it what you like, that is your option. too bad it is misconstrued.

i am a true liberal democrat.

What, exactly, did I take out of context? Enlighten me. I don't read "into" anything. I read your words. Do you not stand by your statements? If you feel that you are being taken out of context, then tell me where I got it wrong.

[mrblaine]

One thing that I thought should be mentioned...

Show me ONE single documented case of a trail getting closed because of alcohol. Just one.

Trails get closed because of weeds, stupid little lizards, turtles, and in the case of Tellico, trout. None of those are alcohol related.

JV is not getting taken away because they think we drink too much out there. It's getting taken because the Marines want to blow it up. Again, show me where alcohol is involved.

I'm not saying that it doesn't paint a bad picture, but using it as an excuse to promote a totalitarian ideal is missing the mark.

Alright, if it paints a bad picture, why are you in such favor of doing so? We fight this battle on every front.

Some of us take stewardship very seriously and do not pick and choose which aspects of it are more important than others when it comes to presenting the best image to any who happens to be looking.

For the record, a totalitarian ideal would be me asking them to put a no alcohol sign up at the entrance to JV. I don't feel that way in the slightest, not now or ever.

If you took my user name off of my posts and read them without bias, you could perhaps see past your rose colored glasses of hate and understand what I'm really saying.

I have nothing against folks drinking and in fact it's encouraged in our camps. Read that again. I don't care and it does not bother me and is welcomed at the appropriate time and place.

If you truly believe that everyone who drinks is an out of control alcoholic (like Nailer), or an irresponsible immature and uncontrollable child (like Blain), then you must promote the ideal of zero tolerance and no compromises as is being thrown out here.

The one thing that is bandied back and forth in this whole mess is it's only one beer or two while standing around watching folks on an obstacle or at lunch.

Here's my question- If your watching the guy in front of you on an obstacle with a beer in your hand and he gets done before you finish your beer and it's your turn to go, then what?

Do you pour it out? Gulp it down, or set it in the cupholder until the next obstacle? We all know the answer, but the truth would be nice.

Again- The entire reason for my stance is I do not want to monitor your alcohol consumption nor that of your passengers. That is not my job nor one I wish to have thrust upon me. You seem to keep missing that part, on purpose or just a failure to understand.

My biggest issue with the whole mess is that folks believe because they are out away from the public's eyes, that they can act in a manner that is contrary to how they would if they were back in the city.

I've made the point about standing around the back of your rig in public sucking down a few beers with your buddies and it was soundly ignored.

You don't do it at "home", why then is it necessary to do it on the trails? The answer is, because you don't think you'll get caught. It's not much more simple than that, is it?

[NAILER341]

Pete, how many beers are in your cooler when you leave camp in the morning? is there ever a time throughout the day while wheeling that there is an open container in your rig while it is progressing down the trail?

do you only have one beer while enjoying your lunch? do you crack open another beer or two while repairs are being made to vehicles on the trail?

how many beers or other alcoholic beverages can you have before you blow a .08?

do you happen to take any medication for pain, blood pressure, diabetes, high cholesterol or other issues that might play into the way alcohol affects you personally?

do i already know the answers to these questions?

how many beers are in your cooler at the end of your wheeling day?

lets break this down to just you and i and see where it goes.

the point of all of this, Pete, is some trail leaders like to be responsible for the run they are on. with that, they take the safety of those within the run on themselves, and like to handle things as they arise. it is nice to not have to worry about the extra shit that presents itself while people are drinking on the runs.

[peteyg]

Here's my question- If your watching the guy in front of you on an obstacle with a beer in your hand and he gets done before you finish your beer and it's your turn to go, then what?

Do you pour it out? Gulp it down, or set it in the cupholder until the next obstacle? We all know the answer, but the truth would be nice.

But that's the point. I DON'T have a beer while standing around waiting for the next guy to finish an obstacle. I have one with lunch, but while we're on the run, I drink Diet Coke. Without fail. I'm a known Diet Cokehead. So I put my Diet Coke in the cupholder and make a go at it. If I were to crack open a beer every time we stopped, that would be irresponsible, and I would tend to get drunk, which is something I don't like to do while wheeling.

But it has been proposed, and reinforced, that because I have a beer in my cooler and have one when stopped for lunch, that somehow I'm a scofflaw that now has to be babysat or watched over. It has even been proposed in this thread that people like me are unable to control our behavior to the point where, unless watched and controlled, we will somehow become totally out of control and be unable to not have that second or third or fourth or fifth beer. That's the attitude that has such a polarizing effect.

One one side, there is a group that says, it is MY responsibility to make sure YOU don't do anything I feel strongly about. Those people commonly try to protect the public from itself for the common good, and we get laws like the ban on lead-containing products that had the unfortunate side-effect of taking all ATV's and Motorcycles off the market that were designed for kids. While the idea behind the law was righteous, the practice was draconian, and resulted in a bad law with even worse enforcement.

On the other side, there is a group that says, it is MY responsibility to ensure that I don't do anything stupid, not anyone else's. If I DO go out and do something stupid (whether is alcohol related or otherwise), then I fully deserve (and will accept without whining) any consequence that happens to me. But that's my responsibility. I don't look at the cop when I get pulled over for speeding and get mad at him. He's just doing his job. I was dumb enough to speed, so I get a ticket. That's my problem, not his. But if I got pulled over all the time because I had a car that was CAPABLE of speeding, that would be HIS fault for being overzealous and overbearing.

Those two sides are polar opposites, and in practice, those two mindsets are not ever going to see eye-to-eye on certain issues.

Even though I don't like you on a personal level (the "rose colored glasses of hate" statement was a bit over the top, but hey...it's no secret that we dislike each other), I do sometimes agree with your point of view, and have even publicly stated so. However, on this issue we are going to have to agree to disagree and move on.

You are not going to convince me that your point is valid no matter how many times you say it, or how many different ways you try to justify it.

At the same time, I am never going to convince you that my point is valid, no matter how many times I say it or how many different ways I try to justify it.

So, we agree that we don't really want to wheel together, and that's ok. I don't think your feelings are hurt on that, and mine certainly aren't, either.

[peteyg]

Pete, how many beers are in your cooler when you leave camp in the morning? is there ever a time throughout the day while wheeling that there is an open container in your rig while it is progressing down the trail?

Usually, one for each of my friends that I'm with. I'm usually the keeper of the cooler.

Edit: If by open container, do you mean a half-full beer sitting in the cupholder while driving, then no. If you mean, an empty can rattling around in the back of my Jeep (usually crushed - it keeps them from rolling around) then yes. In fact, I often pick up beer cans I find on the trail and pack them back to camp. If you mean to paint that as open container, then I'll have to stop my practice of leaving the trail cleaner than how I found it.

do you only have one beer while enjoying your lunch? do you crack open another beer or two while repairs are being made to vehicles on the trail?

I only bring one for me, so I only get one. I like to drink Diet Coke when I'm doing trail repairs. We have a very strict no drinking and wrenching rule amongst ourselves.

how many beers or other alcoholic beverages can you have before you blow a .08?

About 3 Miller Lites at 3.2% if all are slammed within a half hour or so.

do you happen to take any medication for pain, blood pressure, diabetes, high cholesterol or other issues that might play into the way alcohol affects you personally?

Nope, I only take Motrin.

do i already know the answers to these questions?

Nope, you couldn't know the answers unless you knew me and wheeled with me, which you don't, so everything up to this point is conjecture. A wise man once said that smart people only ask questions they already know the answer to.

how many beers are in your cooler at the end of your wheeling day?

Depends. Sometimes we don't break open the beers we brought for lunch, so it could be as little as zero, or as many as 4 or 5.

lets break this down to just you and i and see where it goes.

the point of all of this, Pete, is some trail leaders like to be responsible for the run they are on. with that, they take the safety of those within the run on themselves, and like to handle things as they arise. it is nice to not have to worry about the extra shit that presents itself while people are drinking on the runs.

And that there is the difference in point of view. When I'm on run, I expect people to conduct themselves like adults, and they don't become my problem until they actually BECOME a problem.

Again, the people I wheel with are all adults, and take responsibility for themselves, which suits me just fine. We all support each other well, and never have I once felt I needed to babysit any of them of feel like I had to keep things under control.

Your experiences may differ, in which case, I'd propose that maybe you shouldn't wheel with some of the people that you do.

[USMC 0369]

[COLOR="Sienna"]Sarah, I can't seem to "unsubscribe" from this thread. I don't want to get notifications when someone tries to justify their illegal actions. And open container does apply even if you've crushed the beer can and put it in your trash bag. It's up to the officer to decide if they want to cite you based on if they think you've been drinking while driving.

I posted the link to the law, read it[/COLOR].

[sarah]

I don't mean to steal the last word here, but the truth is that I have never had a problem on the trail with drinking or following the law - and I am sure many, if not most of the people that regularly run trails with MJR haven't either.

With this, it does not seem fitting to keep arguing about it. Everyone has had a chance to make their point and have their say.

[Mike]

One last thought...

Wow!

I go out of town for the weekend and my little question that I posed spurred quite the conversation. I’m sorry that I missed the opportunity to chime in, but I asked the moderator if I could at least post some final thoughts.

First, thank each and every one of you that posted your opinions. I have a new or a renewed respect for each of you. I gained some new insights that hadn’t occurred to me before.

Now on to the point, this thread went pretty much where I had hoped it would go. NO, not a feud on the finer details of legality, morality, hypocrisy, or philosophy! What I think is the GREATEST point that most people just blindly accepted and then moved on to the semantics of the concept is just this:

The MJR off-road community in general, SUPPORTS the law on this topic. This thread had 132 posts and 1984 views and at NO time did the conversation not support the authorities or the laws of the roads that we love.

The USFS, and BLM rangers, as well as the LEOs of these areas need to hear this. We can choose to police our own or not. We can argue the details until we are blue in the face. But the fact that comes from this thread is that no one was willing to stand up for excessive drinking and driving on the trail or anywhere else.

That is what I had HOPED for. Thank you.