A Trail Discussion...of sorts...

[flatpoint]

What the hell does THAT mean? Granted, I'm not that smart, but "I thoroughly love your hypocrisy" sounds to me like your a condisending A""hole.....unless your kidding.....and if you are, I apoligize, and if you are not, you can go "%ck yourself! Let's do each other a favor.....you stay away from me, and I will stay away from you. Simple. You go "lead" your "trail run"....and I will do my own thing. Do not bring your attitude around me.....

[womb raider 940]

uh oh. sounds like someone brought a shiv into the rec yard.

[mrblaine]

What the hell does THAT mean? Granted, I'm not that smart, but "I thoroughly love your hypocrisy" sounds to me like your a condisending A""hole.....unless your kidding.....and if you are, I apoligize, and if you are not, you can go "%ck yourself! Let's do each other a favor.....you stay away from me, and I will stay away from you. Simple. You go "lead" your "trail run"....and I will do my own thing. Do not bring your attitude around me.....

Not kidding in the slightest. Tossing trash out the window is a stupid thing to do, but rarely do you get a DUI for it. A fine maybe, a bit of roadside trash picking for 1 day, but that's about it and it's rarely to never a safety issue and typically when it's spotted, it's either dealt with by retrieval or confrontation.

Yet, we have one who decries participation on a trail run with a litterbug as being less desireable to sharing it with one who drinks. Perfect hypocrisy.

You either choose to follow the rules or you don't. Hypocrisy is picking and choosing which ones you happen to feel like following on a given day.

[Schmo]

So, let me get this right...
If you were on the street, and you saw a person who was obviously drunk and/or drinking and driving, you would not call 911.
What is the difference?
Tam

Perhaps . . . but it depends on the situation. I don’t buy into the zero tolerance :poop: , so I’d use my own judgment. If I saw a reckless (once again I don’t care if the person has been drinking or not) driver that was endangering myself or others, yes I would probably call the police. If I saw someone driving perfectly, endangering no one, with a beer in hand, nope . . . I would not. Here’s the difference as I see it. In most off-road situations, there is an opportunity to separate yourself from those that you feel are being reckless (drunk or sober) and remove yourself from any danger . . . this is considerably different than most on-road situations. Here’s how it works for me . . . I look at the behavior/actions and not the cause. I don’t care if you are drinking, on drugs, have a screw loose, had a rough childhood, or whatever else might contribute to your behavior, my judgment will be based on the actions not the cause.

The shutting down of trails aspect for me is less of an issue that the fact that it's illegal.

Well then if it’s a legal vs. illegal issue . . . where do you draw the line? Do you call the cops when you see someone transporting a firearm improperly? Do you call the cops when you see dogs that are not on leashes? Do you call the cops when you see 50 Jeeps pull up to the trail head and 45 of them have VC code violations?

Yet, we have one who decries participation on a trail run with a litterbug as being less desireable to sharing it with one who drinks. Perfect hypocrisy.

It’s only hypocrisy if he buys into your zero tolerance :poop: Once again, no one here has said that they agree with downing a case of beer or a fifth of whiskey and then wheelin’.

The same curtailment factor is typically not present on 99.9 percent of the trails I've ever been on, so outside of Rich, the vast majority are not inclined to limit their consumption. So again, that places the onus on the rest of the group to keep an eye on things, or become babysitters.

I can understand this attitude if you are the designated trail leader and if you take responsibility for those in your group . . . just do us a favor and be sure to post up that YOU are the trail leader along with your rules and we’ll be fine. Still a bit curious as to who you hang out with when you make comments like: “the vast majority” are not inclined to limit their consumption.

[Desert Jewel]

Just read this entire thread and it seems like a pretty simple concept:

IF YOU ARE MEMBER OF THE MJR AAT CREW, which I see majority having issues with this are not, WHEN ON AN AAT WORK DAY, DO NOT BRING ANY ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES. End of story. Save the drinking for the dinner party afterwards.

If you are a member of MJR and choose to go on a normal everyday trail run, do not drink and drive. Having a beer with lunch is acceptable as long as you do not get drunk. However, majority of the MJR members choose to not drink alcoholic beverages on these runs and are able to refrain from it. If the trail leader chooses not to have alcoholic beverages on the run, then don't sign up for it.

IMO...if you choose to drink an alcoholic beverage at lunch on any run, then don't wear any type of club defining shirt.

[mrblaine]

Perhaps . . . but it depends on the situation. I don’t buy into the zero tolerance :poop: , so I’d use my own judgment.

How many pallets am I allowed to burn before you say something?

How many glass containers am I allowed to bring with me where you can see them before you say something?

How many instances of me driving off the trail in Big Bear will you tolerate before you say something?

How much trash is allowed to exit my vehicle and hit the ground before you say something?

I can understand this attitude if you are the designated trail leader and if you take responsibility for those in your group . . . just do us a favor and be sure to post up that YOU are the trail leader along with your rules and we’ll be fine. Still a bit curious as to who you hang out with when you make comments like: “the vast majority” are not inclined to limit their consumption.

Go spend a day in JV on the trails, or worse, Los Coyotes when it was open. I have never once encountered another group of wheelers in JV on the trails outside of our group(s) that there was not open containers in the vehicles. We that support zero tolerance of alcohol on the trails are in the minority.

I'd also venture on any given weekend in Big Bear, any unknown group I run into will be in violation as well. Seen it far too many times for it to be anomalous.

[mrblaine]

If you are a member of MJR and choose to go on a normal everyday trail run, do not drink and drive. Having a beer with lunch is acceptable as long as you do not get drunk.

Who gets to be in charge of making sure it's only one at lunch?

[womb raider 940]

Who gets to be in charge of making sure it's only one at lunch?

I am confused with your thinking.

Do you think people can't control themselves while drinking?

Do you think the urge of a beer leads to more and more and more?

Dunno about you or the people you hang out with, but there is a thing we call self control. For some it takes a few beers to get buzzed for others it takes alot more.

I think that is awesome you have your runs with no booze. I respect that.

[Desert Jewel]

Who gets to be in charge of making sure it's only one at lunch?

Majority of the MJR members choose to not drink alcoholic beverages on these runs and are able to refrain from it. If the trail leader chooses not to have alcoholic beverages on the run, then don't sign up for it.

[womb raider 940]

How many pallets am I allowed to burn before you say something? DUNNO DONT CARE

How many glass containers am I allowed to bring with me where you can see them before you say something?
OF WHAT
How many instances of me driving off the trail in Big Bear will you tolerate before you say something?
1 TIME
How much trash is allowed to exit my vehicle and hit the ground before you say something?
A BIG FAT ZERO. i DO NOT LIKE TRASH ON THE GROUND. WHETHER IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD OR ON THE TRAIL



We that support zero tolerance of alcohol on the trails are in the minority. ALOT OF THE TRAIL RUNS I HAVE BEEN ON ARE ZERO ALCOHOL. JUST CHECK ARE PICS.

I'd also venture on any given weekend in Big Bear, any unknown group I run into will be in violation as well. Seen it far too many times for it to be anomalous. DUNNO ABOUT BB. BUT STAYING ON THE TRAIL IS COMMON SENSE

[mrblaine]

I am confused with your thinking.

Do you think people can't control themselves while drinking?

Do you think the urge of a beer leads to more and more and more?

Dunno about you or the people you hang out with, but there is a thing we call self control. For some it takes a few beers to get buzzed for others it takes alot more.

I think that is awesome you have your runs with no booze. I respect that.

Why are you confused? I care little about the mechanics of being or not being buzzed. What I do care about is the general public's perception of us as we enjoy our passions offroad and on the trails.

I am no more tolerant of you burning pallets in JV than I am of you drinking and driving. I don't want to be the firewood monitor and trash monitor, and I don't want to be the alcohol monitor.

If I see you drinking at lunch, I have the same expectation that you will continue afterwards. It's no different if I see you with a pile of unburnt pallets by a fire pit. I have a reasonable expectation that you will burn them and the same if I see you toss trash out your window. I have no reason to suspect that you will magically come to your senses and exert this self control that stops you the next 50 times.

Where is the expectation that you will follow the common sense and correct thing to do when I see you not doing that in one instance?

[mrblaine]

Majority of the MJR members choose to not drink alcoholic beverages on these runs and are able to refrain from it. If the trail leader chooses not to have alcoholic beverages on the run, then don't sign up for it.

Therein lies the problem. You should have said that NO MJR members choose to drink on these runs and know that to be true with a moral certainty.

[mrblaine]

How many pallets am I allowed to burn before you say something? DUNNO DONT CARE

You should care if you recreate offroad. There are no pallets or wood containing metal fasteners in JV. It's up to you to know and follow the rules.

How many glass containers am I allowed to bring with me where you can see them before you say something?
OF WHAT

Same rule, same place. Glass containers are not allowed in JV.

How many instances of me driving off the trail in Big Bear will you tolerate before you say something?
1 TIME

Why does that one bother you when the others don't?

How much trash is allowed to exit my vehicle and hit the ground before you say something?
A BIG FAT ZERO. i DO NOT LIKE TRASH ON THE GROUND. WHETHER IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD OR ON THE TRAIL

And this one bothers you more? Perfect!

We that support zero tolerance of alcohol on the trails are in the minority. ALOT OF THE TRAIL RUNS I HAVE BEEN ON ARE ZERO ALCOHOL. JUST CHECK ARE PICS.

I'd also venture on any given weekend in Big Bear, any unknown group I run into will be in violation as well. Seen it far too many times for it to be anomalous. DUNNO ABOUT BB. BUT STAYING ON THE TRAIL IS COMMON SENSE

It's only common sense to you because you choose to follow that rule. The rest take the same amount of common sense, you just choose to ignore them.

[Schmo]

Therein lies the problem. You should have said that NO MJR members choose to drink on these runs and know that to be true with a moral certainty.

The only problem I see is your zero tolerance attitude.


Here's an easy fix . . . those of you that feel the need to make it your personal duty to monitor or police the behavior of others while on the trail, when you are organizing a run of your own, be sure to mention in the post that this is a zero tolerance run. That way we're all on the same page and those that don't have the same views can avoid the run altogether.

[womb raider 940]

:gun:

The only problem I see is your zero tolerance attitude.

:hide::whip::dunno: