A Trail Discussion...of sorts...

[OU812]

In this case were not debating whether it is legal to have a single beer and get back on the trail. I think we all know that that is perfectly legal. But we are concerned more with the public image of MJR then the legality of it. There are,in my opinion, two clear sides to our situation. First, people like us that enjoy exploring our national forest in OHV's. And second there are people who would rather close of the national forest to the point that you can only visit a ranger station to hear from the ranger how amazing the forest is. We are the disadvantaged group in that they are unified and we are not. I say we are not unified because there are people in the OHV community that have no problem with getting falling down drunk and driving trails. And in an effort to show that MJR people are not those people, we should not be having even a single bear on the trail. Because a picture does not explain how many, or how responsible. It only says: JEEP, MJR, BEER, FOREST. Although MJR is not a club with bi-laws and presidents, we are a community of jeepers. As a community I think we have the right to ask our “members” to not drink on the trail because it affects us directly. On your time, OK if you must. But not when you are representing Adopt-A-Trail.

[Schmo]

Well said peteyj . . . I think you speak for many responsible wheelers who may responsibly enjoy a beer or two, but are too afraid of the backlash to speak up here.

Tam . . . you may think a clear message is being sent and that everyone understands that you are referring to drinking WHILE driving, or driving WHILE intoxicated, but comments like these from Mat, demonstrate how that is not the case at all.

I have a feeling before this thread, I would be passive if it was just 1 beer when we stop for lunch, although after the points in this thread, I'll definitely be a about ANY drinking when vehicles are going to be driven PERIOD.

This forum represents a much larger group than the AAT crew. So when someone reads comments like these especially coming from people who run this board, how can you expect anything but confusion?

If somebody takes a picture of you drinking a beer and you're anywhere NEAR an offroad vehicle and even NEAR a trail, it will LOOK bad.

Well that discribes almost every one of us that were in attendance at the IDTT now doesn't it? And chances are it's much easier for the camaraman to just drive up to camp and snap a few pics and crop them to paint the desired picture . . . than it would be for the camaraman to get his Prius out onto the trail to catch someone in the act!!! Sorry but I'm not going to concern myself with or alter my behavior due to the perceptions of others.


(just 2 more to go!!!)

[flatpoint]

USMC 0369.....As a formerly enlisted Marine....(1977,1981 1/4 h&s Co.)...I can understand your drive, and passion for what you feel is right....(and you are), however, I do hope you are talking about "policing" MJR....not someone you may run into out in our desert.....if you "spot" a man,(or woman) out in the desert, having a beer or five.....not bothering anyone....what is your next move? Are you going to confront them? Are you going to try to take their picture? I would hope not.Some people go way "out there" to be alone...and to enjoy the same desert that you do, but not the way you think it should be enjoyed....( I may be wrong here..) I guess the bottom line for me is leave people ALONE out there that WANT to be left ALONE.Police MJR, if you feel the need. Do not try to be the "Desert Possie".....some out there may feel that it's a threat to drive up on them and start taking pictures.....and most of the people out there are armed....and some are very good with a rifle, (I've meet them!)....just something to think about........Take care of your own, and leave others alone.

[NAILER341]

USMC 0369.....As a formerly enlisted Marine....(1977,1981 1/4 h&s Co.)...I can understand your drive, and passion for what you feel is right....(and you are), however, I do hope you are talking about "policing" MJR....not someone you may run into out in our desert.....if you "spot" a man,(or woman) out in the desert, having a beer or five.....not bothering anyone....what is your next move? Are you going to confront them? Are you going to try to take their picture? I would hope not.Some people go way "out there" to be alone...and to enjoy the same desert that you do, but not the way you think it should be enjoyed....( I may be wrong here..) I guess the bottom line for me is leave people ALONE out there that WANT to be left ALONE.Police MJR, if you feel the need. Do not try to be the "Desert Possie".....some out there may feel that it's a threat to drive up on them and start taking pictures.....and most of the people out there are armed....and some are very good with a rifle, (I've meet them!)....just something to think about........Take care of your own, and leave others alone.

he speaks of policing people on his rins, or runs he is leading.

[Materdaddy]

Well said peteyj . . . I think you speak for many responsible wheelers who may responsibly enjoy a beer or two, but are too afraid of the backlash to speak up here.

Tam . . . you may think a clear message is being sent and that everyone understands that you are referring to drinking WHILE driving, or driving WHILE intoxicated, but comments like these from Mat, demonstrate how that is not the case at all.

This forum represents a much larger group than the AAT crew. So when someone reads comments like these especially coming from people who run this board, how can you expect anything but confusion?


Well that discribes almost every one of us that were in attendance at the IDTT now doesn't it? And chances are it's much easier for the camaraman to just drive up to camp and snap a few pics and crop them to paint the desired picture . . . than it would be for the camaraman to get his Prius out onto the trail to catch someone in the act!!! Sorry but I'm not going to concern myself with or alter my behavior due to the perceptions of others.


(just 2 more to go!!!)

Everybody I saw at IDTT was not drinking until long after trail runs and long after vehicles were not in motion.

I certainly hope people are not trying to crop pictures of bad behavior that isn't taking place. If that were the case, those people would just make pictures of people drinking, driving off of the trails, harming nature (animals/plants), littering, or whatever else they could think of to get trails closed.

My intention is not to give mixed messages to the users of this board. It is also not my intention to alienate anybody. That being said, I'll leave the discussion with this: If you're going to be driving when wheeling with me, please leave your beer at camp/home for later.

If anybody wants to discuss this with me any further, please take it to PM. I don't want this thread to become a flame war or create any enemies.

[OU812]

I am sure USMC0369 will respond as soon as he gets back. He's already in big bear getting ready for tomorrows work.

[sarah]

This forum represents a much larger group than the AAT crew. So when someone reads comments like these especially coming from people who run this board, how can you expect anything but confusion?

We understand your confusion. Mat helps moderate the board and this is his personal opinion. The official position of the MJR Admins on this issue is: Don't break the law.

If you are on an official MJR AAT run, we would expect you to respect the program, the Forest Service, and Greg by not drinking at all.

[womb raider 940]

We understand your confusion. Mat helps moderate the board and this is his personal opinion. The official position of the MJR Admins on this issue is: Don't break the law.

If you are on an official MJR AAT run, we would expect you to respect the program, the Forest Service, and Greg by not drinking at all.

Couldn't have said it better!!!

I am gonna have a drink now and go see it my broke down jeep. (it is in pieces)

[mrblaine]

Ya know, even if someone were to want to post up and say, "Hey, I like to have a beer with my lunch while I'm stopped on a trail run" , they wouldn't, because you all are starting to sound a LOT like a lynch mob.

I don't disagree in any way with the concept of not drinking and driving. However, there is NO difference in me going out to lunch and having a beer in a restaurant and then driving back to work, and me having a beer in my cooler and having a cold one with my lunch on the trail. It is my responsibility to ensure that I do not drive drunk, and if I fail in that responsibility, then there are laws in place to make sure I pay for that mistake. But it's MY call, not anyone else's. The way you guys are talking, I'd be "kicked out of the club" for that. Big deal. I'm not "in" your club, strictly speaking.

I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, but I have big problems with all-or-nothing type people. This world is made up of many different shades of gray, and all-or-nothing attitudes reek of intolerance to me.

Actually you are trying to be a dick, but that's okay, it's expected.

Here's the problem with 1 or 2 beers at lunch. You have now placed your trail mates in the position of being your babysitter to make sure it's only one or two beverages.

That's not my job or anyone else's job, so the easy, simple and most effective way to solve the problem is zero tolerance. You've also placed a much higher value on your need to consume 1 or 2 beers on the trail over the value of following a simple rule that if followed, needs no policing and no babysitting.

Is it really that important to you to drink alcohol that you can't delete the one or two at lunch and still function?

When our crew lead the run at the Tinbender Jambo, I was the only trail leader that specified a zero tolerance policy on the trail. Let me define that clearly for you. It wasn't that the driver couldn't drink, it was no alcohol on the trail in the vehicle, period, no exceptions. That simplifies matters to the most base of levels. If I see it in anyone's hands, then it's clearly a violation and I don't have to check and see if it's the passenger drinking or the driver.

There are clearly two well defined groups of recreationalists out there. One group goes and does things and has a few drinks when the time is correct. The second group drinks and looks for things they can do while their drinking.

I've been around them when I shot competitive shotgun sports, when I saltwater fished, when I hunted, and now when I wheel.

If you're in the second group, then you need to find more of them to spend time around because the two mindsets don't mix well.


I'm to the point now where I'm pretty much over the confrontational aspect of trying to change folks and get them to conform to behaviors I find acceptable. The best bet for all of us is to recognize that you're not going to get others to change and just find ways not to spend time around them and instead spend time with those with your same value system.

If you want to drink and drive, have at it. It's my choice to let you do it around me. I can't change you, but I damn sure don't have to spend any time with you. You define your values and I'll define mine and if I want to hang out with a bunch of drunks, then I know where the bar is.

[Schmo]

The vast majority of us here are in agreement when it comes to people being irresponsible (drunk or sober), drinking while driving, and just being an all around ass on the trail. My concerns are around the . . . zero tolerance, all-or-nothing, I’m right and you’re wrong, intolerant type of attitude that I see in threads where topics like this come up. There are plenty of reasons to wheel with like minded individuals: Okay you don’t like to be around people that drink, fine. You have kids and don’t want them around foul mouthed people, fine. You want to break for a Bible study during lunch, fine. You like to take it slow or fast and don’t want others pressuring you or holding you back, fine. Whatever your reason, that’s your choice, but it doesn’t make you right or anyone else wrong. I’ve already said my piece about influence vs. intolerance, and hope that we as a community can find ways to avoid and not be lumped in with the irresponsible, without alienating those that otherwise would be valuable to the cause.

For those of you that feel the need to involve of law enforcement when you see any illegal activity on the trail . . . I’d be interested to hear how you feel this will assist in keeping the trails open (as that seems to be the main goal here . . . correct me if I’m wrong in that assumption). My assumption (and it’s just that) is that flooding the police department with calls about illegal activity on the trails . . . would simply be yet another reason for them to be shut down. Seems to me that if law enforcement shows up to some of the official meetings to explain how they do not have the time or resources to respond to the calls, our trails will be shut down at an even faster rate than they are today. Again, just my assumption, but this seems rather counter productive to me.

[mrblaine]

The vast majority of us here are in agreement when it comes to people being irresponsible (drunk or sober), drinking while driving, and just being an all around ass on the trail. My concerns are around the . . . zero tolerance, all-or-nothing, I’m right and you’re wrong, intolerant type of attitude that I see in threads where topics like this come up. There are plenty of reasons to wheel with like minded individuals: Okay you don’t like to be around people that drink, fine.

I exhibit zero tolerance for being around folks that drink in my personal life in that I don't go to bars, I don't drink at home and I don't seek out venues where I know large amounts of alcohol will be consumed. I don't like being around impaired individuals in general.

The only place I make an exception is when I'm camping on a wheeling trip. It is not fair to exert my personal belief system on my friends around camp, so you are not only welcome to imbibe as you see fit, it's encouraged because it's rarely if ever a safety issue. When it does become a safety issue, it will be dealt with accordingly.

The only place that I expect and enforce a zero tolerance policy is on the trail for the reasons I've already outlined.

Zero tolerance is easy, simple, and very effective, plus I don't have to worry about a driver sneaking sips of his passenger's beverage. There's a whole bunch of valid reasons not to drink on the trail and not a single one that supports it. It is that simple.

You have kids and don’t want them around foul mouthed people, fine. You want to break for a Bible study during lunch, fine. You like to take it slow or fast and don’t want others pressuring you or holding you back, fine. Whatever your reason, that’s your choice, but it doesn’t make you right or anyone else wrong. I’ve already said my piece about influence vs. intolerance, and hope that we as a community can find ways to avoid and not be lumped in with the irresponsible, without alienating those that otherwise would be valuable to the cause.

If you as an individual do not understand and comprehend the reasons, then I don't see or perceive the value you bring to the table and therefore I see your absence as no great loss.

For those of you that feel the need to involve of law enforcement when you see any illegal activity on the trail . . . I’d be interested to hear how you feel this will assist in keeping the trails open (as that seems to be the main goal here . . . correct me if I’m wrong in that assumption). My assumption (and it’s just that) is that flooding the police department with calls about illegal activity on the trails . . . would simply be yet another reason for them to be shut down. Seems to me that if law enforcement shows up to some of the official meetings to explain how they do not have the time or resources to respond to the calls, our trails will be shut down at an even faster rate than they are today. Again, just my assumption, but this seems rather counter productive to me.

Why do you think that acceptance of illegal behavior on the trails will keep them open?

[womb raider 940]

You guys take this stuff way too seriously.

The trails can be shut down either way. They come up with new excuses for it.

Whether it is water erosion or drinking on the trail.

This "club" may not do it. but there is many others that do it.

I have been wheeling for a year and a half. For me this is just a hobby. If someone is drinking and acting like an idiot. Which happened a few months ago. When alot of these people were blocking the trail. I will leave them alone. I dont care what they are doing as long as it doesn't INVOLVE ME. I am not a police officer.

So I think it is great that you dont want drunks or people who drink on your trail run. Is fine. IS your trail run and you can do whatever rules are on it.

I just think everyone should relax about this kinda of stuff. Nothing is gonna change with you fellas getting all upset about it.

[mrblaine]

You guys take this stuff way too seriously.

Really? How many folks do you know that have killed themselves while drinking and driving on the trail over a stupid little obstacle? I would suspect none if you don't take this seriously. Those of us that do have that personal knowledge, tend to regard it in a different light.

The trails can be shut down either way. They come up with new excuses for it.

The shutting down of trails aspect for me is less of an issue that the fact that it's illegal.

Whether it is water erosion or drinking on the trail.

This "club" may not do it. but there is many others that do it.

I have been wheeling for a year and a half. For me this is just a hobby. If someone is drinking and acting like an idiot. Which happened a few months ago. When alot of these people were blocking the trail. I will leave them alone. I dont care what they are doing as long as it doesn't INVOLVE ME. I am not a police officer.

So I think it is great that you dont want drunks or people who drink on your trail run. Is fine. IS your trail run and you can do whatever rules are on it.

I just think everyone should relax about this kinda of stuff. Nothing is gonna change with you fellas getting all upset about it.

I'm not even remotely upset and you keep thinking it doesn't involve you and let's have this conversation a couple of years from now.

[Schmo]

Why do you think that acceptance of illegal behavior on the trails will keep them open?

I didn't realize that any of my comments expressed acceptance of illegal behavior. Several times I've mentioned how I'd rather not be around drunks or irresponsible individuals. And when prompted I provided suggestions on how to handle these situations . . . I don't consider these to be signs of acceptance. I do not feel that I need to be a narc and make it my responsiblity to alert the authorities every time I see something illegal. I don't consider minding my own busniess and accepting the behavior of others to be remotely the same.

[flatpoint]

I agree......

Police your own, if you must.....and leave others alone.