A Trail Discussion...of sorts...

[Schmo]

[COLOR="Sienna"]I hope you realize I'm not trying to fight with you about this.

I only wheel with MJR people. So I don't feel I'm ever going to have to make good on my promise. (Sneaky huh?) But I'll keep an eye on you...

5 more.[/COLOR]

Not at all . . . at the end of the day I'm sure most of us here want the same thing. Which is what makes this site what it is!

[USMC 0369]

Not at all . . . at the end of the day I'm sure most of us here want the same thing. Which is what makes this site what it is!

[COLOR="Sienna"]Dude...you're not supposed to agree...how am I supposed to work with that? 4 More!!![/COLOR]

[Schmo]

[COLOR="Sienna"]Dude...you're not supposed to agree...how am I supposed to work with that? 4 More!!![/COLOR]

You left me with no choice!!! I'll just have to lurk around some other threads!

[JeepGal]

During last nights AAT Meeting, we all kinda took a stand against drinking and driving. The vast majority of the folks stood up and voiced their opinion with a show of hands that if a club is caught drinking and driving that that club would be removed from the AAT program.

This is not what Greg expected us to say. I think he thought we would be tolerant and give warnings. I say no tolerance on this subject.

I would HATE to lose our trail because one of our members was doing something illegal. Worse then that, I would hate the entire AAT program to be shut down because a club couldnt police its own.

We can not leave any room for interpretation. MY JEEP ROCKS has ZERO tolerance for drinking and driving on the trails. PERIOD. If I see you doing it, I will call law enforcement.

Tam

[Jason]

I like to see this kind of results from this group. We hang out together because we all have the same goal to wheel and enjoy each other's company. That's all I have to contribute to this.

[MyBrokenJeep]

I like to see this kind of results from this group. We hang out together because we all have the same goal to wheel and enjoy each other's company. That's all I have to contribute to this.

Amen to what Jason said... and Damn! Joe, I have to do some serious posting to catch up with you!
[CENTER]
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[NAILER341]

[COLOR="Sienna"]Mat, you know I enjoy wheeling with you and Tiff, and you're great people...but I don't think that you have to be the trail leader to do something about this. If we all say "Well, nothing I can really do about it, I'm not the trail leader." We're perpetuating the problem.

Here is a promise to everyone: If I see you drinking, being dangerous, or doing something illegal on the trail; I'm going to confront you about it. I'll confront you about it AFTER I've taken a photo of you doing it, which will be sent to whomever can get you banned from the boards...so know that. If I talk to you about it, and you own up to it & correct yourself, I'll mark it up as "old habits die hard." If you make a habit of doing these things until someone confronts you, then you're a habitual offender and I just won't wheel with you. (big loss eh?) I just don't want to be associated with this crap, I'm fed up.

If, when confronted, you get beligerent and start spewing excuses and telling me it's not my business; one of two things will happen:
If I'm the trail leader, you're gonna leave the group. Don't care if I'm abandoning you in the middle of the desert in 130+ degree weather. You abandoned me already by not adhering to the rules. Good luck.
If I'm not the trail leader, you can bet I'm going to let the leadership know. If the trail leader and others tell me it's not my business and that it's okay...then I'll leave your group. Don't care if it's August in Johnson Valley. I always come with plenty of water and I can survive just about anywhere on earth. (never tried Antarctica)

As I said before though, MJR is truly not the problem, in my opinion. It's these other clubs (and we have one here locally in the Hi-Desert) that think the trail system exists because it's their god-given right to be a dumbass when they put the rig in 4-wheel. We can call the SBNF Dispatch, see if we can get a LEO to nail someone being stupid. But if we take pictures and post them, it makes us all look bad. Wish we could take out their tires or something, but can't do that either. (At $200+ per tire, I'd shape up real quick)

What's the solution? CAN the FS confiscate your rig for drinking in SBNF trails? Michigan they can confiscate your rig. Let that happen to a couple of folks... that'll bring stuff to a halt quick.

Now, have I ever done something against the rules? Probably, but not intentionally. And if someone brings it to my attention, I try to make up for it as quickly as I can. If this isn't the truth, someone please call me on it.[/COLOR]

i knew i liked you ... i just didn't realize how much until now
10 respect points for Nick.

[bruce p]

It's not the folks that are posting in this thread that are the issue. It's some of the ones that may be (hopefully)reading it. Kudos to you guys for taking a strong stand on this issue. Maybe a similar approach can be taken toward staying on the legal portion of all trailss and illegal trail riding. Good thread.

[USMC 0369]

You left me with no choice!!! I'll just have to lurk around some other threads!

[COLOR="Sienna"]Joe! Three left and you quit?[/COLOR]

[USMC 0369]

During last nights AAT Meeting, we all kinda took a stand against drinking and driving. The vast majority of the folks stood up and voiced their opinion with a show of hands that if a club is caught drinking and driving that that club would be removed from the AAT program.

This is not what Greg expected us to say. I think he thought we would be tolerant and give warnings. I say no tolerance on this subject.

I would HATE to lose our trail because one of our members was doing something illegal. Worse then that, I would hate the entire AAT program to be shut down because a club couldnt police its own.

We can not leave any room for interpretation. MY JEEP ROCKS has ZERO tolerance for drinking and driving on the trails. PERIOD. If I see you doing it, I will call law enforcement.

Tam

[COLOR="Sienna"]And I'm sure Tam forgot to say; I'd hate to lose one of our MJR or AAT members to someone drinking or acting like an idiot on the trails. It's not worth someones life.[/COLOR]

i knew i liked you ... i just didn't realize how much until now
10 respect points for Nick.

[COLOR="Sienna"]Awesome! Now my total is at... um... 10![/COLOR]

[Materdaddy]

[COLOR="Sienna"]Mat, you know I enjoy wheeling with you and Tiff, and you're great people...but I don't think that you have to be the trail leader to do something about this. If we all say "Well, nothing I can really do about it, I'm not the trail leader." We're perpetuating the problem.

Here is a promise to everyone: If I see you drinking, being dangerous, or doing something illegal on the trail; I'm going to confront you about it. I'll confront you about it AFTER I've taken a photo of you doing it, which will be sent to whomever can get you banned from the boards...so know that. If I talk to you about it, and you own up to it & correct yourself, I'll mark it up as "old habits die hard." If you make a habit of doing these things until someone confronts you, then you're a habitual offender and I just won't wheel with you. (big loss eh?) I just don't want to be associated with this crap, I'm fed up.

If, when confronted, you get beligerent and start spewing excuses and telling me it's not my business; one of two things will happen:
If I'm the trail leader, you're gonna leave the group. Don't care if I'm abandoning you in the middle of the desert in 130+ degree weather. You abandoned me already by not adhering to the rules. Good luck.
If I'm not the trail leader, you can bet I'm going to let the leadership know. If the trail leader and others tell me it's not my business and that it's okay...then I'll leave your group. Don't care if it's August in Johnson Valley. I always come with plenty of water and I can survive just about anywhere on earth. (never tried Antarctica)

As I said before though, MJR is truly not the problem, in my opinion. It's these other clubs (and we have one here locally in the Hi-Desert) that think the trail system exists because it's their god-given right to be a dumbass when they put the rig in 4-wheel. We can call the SBNF Dispatch, see if we can get a LEO to nail someone being stupid. But if we take pictures and post them, it makes us all look bad. Wish we could take out their tires or something, but can't do that either. (At $200+ per tire, I'd shape up real quick)

What's the solution? CAN the FS confiscate your rig for drinking in SBNF trails? Michigan they can confiscate your rig. Let that happen to a couple of folks... that'll bring stuff to a halt quick.

Now, have I ever done something against the rules? Probably, but not intentionally. And if someone brings it to my attention, I try to make up for it as quickly as I can. If this isn't the truth, someone please call me on it.[/COLOR]

Somehow I missed this post... Sorry Nick, didn't mean to ignore it and only reply to Kurt's!

I guess part of my reason for specifying leading vs. not leading the run is because we've never been out wheeling with anybody that we've seen drinking. We've never really had to worry about it, and never had to think about the situation. We've always been very selective about who we wheel with, not just because of our stance on drinking, but also because of general jackassery*.

I've never had the dismay of seeing somebody drinking while driving on the trail, and therefore never needed to take action. I'm not exactly sure the reaction I'd have in this situation. I have a feeling before this thread, I would be passive if it was just 1 beer when we stop for lunch, although after the points in this thread, I'll definitely be a about ANY drinking when vehicles are going to be driven PERIOD.

As people here have stated, MJR isn't filled with the "problem" types, so hopefully we won't need to follow through with any of this.

[color="Sienna"]* PM sent for approval of using this trademarked word...[/color]
[color="Sienna"]EDIT: approval received for user Materdaddy for one, no more than one thread...[/color]

During last nights AAT Meeting, we all kinda took a stand against drinking and driving. The vast majority of the folks stood up and voiced their opinion with a show of hands that if a club is caught drinking and driving that that club would be removed from the AAT program.

This is not what Greg expected us to say. I think he thought we would be tolerant and give warnings. I say no tolerance on this subject.

I would HATE to lose our trail because one of our members was doing something illegal. Worse then that, I would hate the entire AAT program to be shut down because a club couldnt police its own.

We can not leave any room for interpretation. MY JEEP ROCKS has ZERO tolerance for drinking and driving on the trails. PERIOD. If I see you doing it, I will call law enforcement.

Tam

I find it strange that Greg would be surprised about everybody wanting to take a zero tolerance policy. I agree that a ZERO TOLERANCE policy should be clearly stated by our group, and other groups as well.

[peteyg]

Ya know, even if someone were to want to post up and say, "Hey, I like to have a beer with my lunch while I'm stopped on a trail run" , they wouldn't, because you all are starting to sound a LOT like a lynch mob.

I don't disagree in any way with the concept of not drinking and driving. However, there is NO difference in me going out to lunch and having a beer in a restaurant and then driving back to work, and me having a beer in my cooler and having a cold one with my lunch on the trail. It is my responsibility to ensure that I do not drive drunk, and if I fail in that responsibility, then there are laws in place to make sure I pay for that mistake. But it's MY call, not anyone else's. The way you guys are talking, I'd be "kicked out of the club" for that. Big deal. I'm not "in" your club, strictly speaking.

I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, but I have big problems with all-or-nothing type people. This world is made up of many different shades of gray, and all-or-nothing attitudes reek of intolerance to me.

[Materdaddy]

To me (and probably others on this thread) there is a difference with somebody going to a restaurant, having a beer and driving home from the example of having one while stopped on the trail for lunch: perception.

If somebody takes a picture of you drinking a beer and you're anywhere NEAR an offroad vehicle and even NEAR a trail, it will LOOK bad. Whether it is or not, is open to interpretation. The problem is who gets the final call? In the case of AAT work, we are representatives of the forest service and I don't want to be in ANY situation which can be open to the wrong type of interpretation. You and I both know that certain people will take the wrong interpretation when looking at the OHV community and it is NOT worth the crappy canned beer.

I love beer as much or more than the next guy, but to me it's not worth having trails closed to have a cold one on a trail lunch break because people have different perceptions than we do.

[peteyg]

To me (and probably others on this thread) there is a difference with somebody going to a restaurant, having a beer and driving home from the example of having one while stopped on the trail for lunch: perception.

If somebody takes a picture of you drinking a beer and you're anywhere NEAR an offroad vehicle and even NEAR a trail, it will LOOK bad. Whether it is or not, is open to interpretation. The problem is who gets the final call? In the case of AAT work, we are representatives of the forest service and I don't want to be in ANY situation which can be open to the wrong type of interpretation. You and I both know that certain people will take the wrong interpretation when looking at the OHV community and it is NOT worth the crappy canned beer.

I love beer as much or more than the next guy, but to me it's not worth having trails closed to have a cold one on a trail lunch break because people have different perceptions than we do.

I may as well stop wheeling, then. There is NOTHING that we can do to change the other side's perception that wheeling "looks" bad. I'm tired and sick of cowing to the "other side" when we NEVER see any appreciable gain. THEY don't worry about how bad they look.

A beer won't get a trail closed. An idiot will. I have seen plenty of sober idiots.

To me it's just not worth it to bow to a PERCEIVED perception just because I'm afraid of what someone might see me do. I'm done with that. Again, if you don't want the "other side" to think badly of wheeling, the only option you have is to STOP WHEELING.

I just got done watching The Tales of Desperaux last night (I'm sure I butchered the spelling on that), and the attitudes of the mice and their policy of timidness and nobility through cowardice sounds a lot like this.

I'm not saying anyone here is a coward, so don't read into that. But the whole idea of a mindset of timidness is bad. I'm also NOT advocating that it's ok to drink and wheel. The law is VERY clear on this issue, and I have no argument with it. Wheeling drunk is exactly the same as driving drunk, and should be fully prosecuted without mercy. But I think that being afraid of what other people may thing of whatever I may be doing is an exercise is self loathing, and I won't do it.

By the same logic, bars should be banned, and we should never be able to be served alcohol in public, because organizations like MADD go out of their way to paint drinking and then leaving a bar in the worst possible light. I like bars, and I make sure that I either 1) have a DD, or 2) don't drink to excess so I am able to safely drive home. That is called responsible drinking, and it is a socially acceptable practice. Just because some fringe group disagrees does not make it less so.

But no worries. If you don't want to see me drink a beer with my lunch, don't come wheeling with me. It won't hurt my feelings.

[JeepGal]

I believe I said "DRINKING AND DRIVING".

As long as you arent intoxicated when you get back in your vehicle, youre fine. Seriously though, if you cant get through the day without having an alcoholic beverage, you might have a problem. My personal opinion is that you dont bring alcohol at all on a trail run.

But when it comes to drinking WHILE driving, Im BLACK AND WHITE. And from what it sounds Pete, you are pretty much as well.

Call it a lynch mob if youd like.

I think you took the sentence out of context.

I would HATE to lose our trail because one of our members was doing something illegal. Worse then that, I would hate the entire AAT program to be shut down because a club couldnt police its own.

I was talking about losing our AAT. And, just to clarify- drinking anytime during an AAT Maintenance run is unacceptable.

FYI, I believe that any citation given on Federal lands is a Federal offense.

Tam