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ACTION ALERT: Doran Dr./ Oddessa Cyn Gate Keeper bypass closed off

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  • Originally posted by JeepGal View Post
    For as long as I know the Gatekeeper has been in its current state.
    That's not the answer to the question I asked. I asked if the Gatekeeper has always been at it's current level of difficulty. I know for a fact based on the numbers of folks that I know that that have been there over the years, it's only getting worse and as early as 7 or 8 years ago, it was easily doable by 33" tired vehicles.




    The area is basically sandy hills, and unless they build a fence around Calico Campground, (which is what we're suggesting), there will always be an illegal bypass available. If youre truly interested in this topic, you should go out and look yourself. Yes, I do suggest you try to buy into this logic.
    The logic I won't ever buy into is doing something or not doing something because there will always be a way around it. Just because 10,000 folks are doing something illegal, does not set a precedent to be perpetuated or condoned. That's the logic I refer to.

    If we dont find a permanent solution, we could eventually end up with another closed trail.
    Is it truly a trail that's being closed?

    My apologies, but I'm not quite getting the nuance or subtle differences here. There were pics shown of alternate routes being blocked with phone poles and how willing everyone was to jump in and help the PTB put them up to block routes that are better not taken. Routes by the way, that look to have been taken by hundreds over the years.

    Define the nuance for me because those phone poles look to be denying access to an established route while directing folks to a more difficult portion of the trail.



    I dont understand what youre saying. Yes, it would close it for all but the most built, but it certainly is not the option we choose. Which other options are you suggesting? Filling in the Gatekeeper is the only other option. But it cant be filled in permanently, therefore, the by-pass becomes a problem again.
    Why can't it be filled in permanently? Not possible or not acceptable?

    Why do you suggest that we limit this very popular trail to only the most built rigs?
    Where have I suggested that?



    Correct. I ran Doran Scenic Loop by taking the bypass. I've never ran the Gatekeeper, nor do I ever intend to. About 99% of drivers take the by-pass.



    What other questions did you have?

    Have you ever driven the Doran Scenic Loop? Have you run the Gatekeeper? I consider you the most experienced driver and your Jeep the best built that I know of. Im certain that the Gatekeeper would still be quite a challenge for you.
    Let me get a bit of further clarification, and I have this exact conversation with many folks who have run Doran. You suggest that I load up my rig, haul it all the way to Calico, and then run a trail that has 50 feet of 10+ difficulty so I can spend the rest of the time on something that is readily done in a stock rig on 29's?

    What is actually so bad about bringing the whole trail to about the same level of difficulty and not having to worry about "bypasses"?

    These are exactly the kinds of questions that the BLM, the County and the Regional Park will be asking. I appreciate youre making me take the time to get my thoughts in order and ready for our meeting.

    Tam
    I am Savvy.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by mrblaine View Post
      That's not the answer to the question I asked. I asked if the Gatekeeper has always been at it's current level of difficulty. I know for a fact based on the numbers of folks that I know that that have been there over the years, it's only getting worse and as early as 7 or 8 years ago, it was easily doable by 33" tired vehicles.
      I honestly dont know how long its been the way it is. I cant locate a date when the road washed out. I dont know when it was "easily do-able" by 33" tires. When I started going there in 2002, it was certainly not do-able with 33's. I cant answer before that.


      Originally posted by mrblaine View Post
      The logic I won't ever buy into is doing something or not doing something because there will always be a way around it. Just because 10,000 folks are doing something illegal, does not set a precedent to be perpetuated or condoned. That's the logic I refer to.
      Ill agree with you here. But we dont want it to become another situation where "One (or a few) bad apples spoil the bunch."

      Originally posted by mrblaine View Post
      Is it truly a trail that's being closed?
      I was very careful on how I worded that sentence. "...we could eventually end up with another closed trail." I've heard at least one person at the Regional Park state something to the affect of "Off-roaders have no business being back there anyway. " We dont need this mindset to perpetuate. We can help change that by letting them know that we are here to help.


      Originally posted by mrblaine View Post
      My apologies, but I'm not quite getting the nuance or subtle differences here. There were pics shown of alternate routes being blocked with phone poles and how willing everyone was to jump in and help the PTB put them up to block routes that are better not taken. Routes by the way, that look to have been taken by hundreds over the years.

      Define the nuance for me because those phone poles look to be denying access to an established route while directing folks to a more difficult portion of the trail.
      The pictures that Julie (Desert Jewel) posted were of 2n17. The alternate routes in the pictures were requested closed by the San Bernardino National Forest. From what very little I know of the area, the bypass were often "option more difficult" routes. The primary difference here was that they did not hamper one from driving the trail fron beginning to end. They were eroded offshoots of the original trail.


      Originally posted by mrblaine View Post
      Why can't it be filled in permanently? Not possible or not acceptable?
      Again, I dont know the answer to that. Of course, we dont want to fill it in permanently. Im sure the Highyway Department had considered the road permanent when they built it back in the 30's. It was washed away numerous times before they abandoned its repair. So can the Gatekeeper be permanently filled? I guess that all depends on your definition of permanent.

      Originally posted by mrblaine View Post
      Where have I suggested that?
      rereading your posts, no you havent. But you sure are playing devils advocate.

      Originally posted by mrblaine View Post
      Let me get a bit of further clarification, and I have this exact conversation with many folks who have run Doran. You suggest that I load up my rig, haul it all the way to Calico, and then run a trail that has 50 feet of 10+ difficulty so I can spend the rest of the time on something that is readily done in a stock rig on 29's?
      No more then I would suggest someone on 33's open and unlocked go to the Hammers. My point is if you dont want to take my word for the description of the area, then drive up and see for yourself. Some folks have well built rigs that enjoy the thrill of the Gatekeeper, but are still not ready for the pounding repetition of the Hammers. This trail is for them, and everyone else who chooses to take the by-pass.

      Originally posted by mrblaine View Post
      What is actually so bad about bringing the whole trail to about the same level of difficulty and not having to worry about "bypasses"?
      I understand your point. I'll never run it, why does it matter to ME? But the point is that there are many many who would be disappointed to see the Gatekeeper go. Shouldnt we at least try to work out something with the Regional Park before losing the bypass? It's worth the effort. I'm not afraid to take the time to talk to them, and work out an amicable solution. Its good for the off-road community for interactions like this take place.

      Tam
      Last edited by JeepGal; 06-08-08, 06:49 PM.
      2002 TJ on 35s a bit of lift with some stuff
      Rock-ItMan all the way around

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JeepGal View Post

        The pictures that Julie (Desert Jewel) posted were of Cleghorn (I believe).

        It is actually on 2n17x.

        Comment


        • Just to clarify, the barricade and bypass are both on Regional Park property, not BLM.

          Tam
          2002 TJ on 35s a bit of lift with some stuff
          Rock-ItMan all the way around

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Desert Jewel View Post
            It is actually on 2n17x.
            Isn't 2n17x one of the routes you can take from Silverwood Lake over to or by Pilot Rock and then on into Arrowhead?
            I am Savvy.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JeepGal View Post
              Just to clarify, the barricade and bypass are both on Regional Park property, not BLM.

              Tam
              The bypass and barricade are both on RP property. Who has purview over the actual trail that leads up to the Gatekeeper?
              I am Savvy.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by mrblaine View Post
                The bypass and barricade are both on RP property. Who has purview over the actual trail that leads up to the Gatekeeper?

                BLM manages the area.
                2002 TJ on 35s a bit of lift with some stuff
                Rock-ItMan all the way around

                Comment


                • I learned to off-road on these trails. They have been similar to the way they are now for YEARS. The point of the matter is that things changed. Not from an act of God, but from the whim of a campground. It was not discussed with the people that drive these trails every day. If it's that easy to shut down a trail and receive absolutely no opposition, what would stop someone from shutting down Doran Canyon as a whole? There were public use trails here long before there was a campground.
                  "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."
                  -Margaret Thatcher

                  Comment


                  • You're not very good at this, so don't make it worse


                    Originally posted by Shadly1 View Post
                    I learned to off-road on these trails. They have been similar to the way they are now for YEARS.
                    I don't care where you learned to offroad and that has exactly zero relevance to this situation. Similar means exactly what?

                    Similar could mean that there was a paved road up through there. Don't use ambiguous terms when trying to defend something.

                    How long is "YEARS"? I could say with absolute certainty that YEARS ago the road was asphalt and not be wrong. Be specific.

                    The point of the matter is that things changed.
                    That's merely your perspective. The trail actually changes every single time a vehicle passes over it. In actuality, what happened is something changed that you don't like, not that a change occurred.

                    Not from an act of God, but from the whim of a campground.
                    So it would be okay if a rainstorm came along and washed away the bypass and denied you access to it that way?

                    BTW- Judging by the verbiage in the very first post that was put up about this "change", it doesn't appear to be whimsical in the slightest.

                    What it does appear to be is a campground that derives income from paying customers trying to protect that right.

                    It also appears from that same verbiage that the ability to "sneak" back and forth is well known by all, especially given that the aerial view maps clearly show the "bypasses" folks have used.


                    It was not discussed with the people that drive these trails every day.
                    Just for the sake of discussion, why should the campground discuss loss of revenue with you?

                    If it's that easy to shut down a trail and receive absolutely no opposition, what would stop someone from shutting down Doran Canyon as a whole?
                    Well the first reason that comes to mind is that they aren't really shutting down the trail. They are closing a bypass that leaves the trail intact. Did I miss the explanation to the contrary somewhere?

                    There were public use trails here long before there was a campground.
                    So did you get a group together and oppose the installation of the campground?
                    I am Savvy.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JeepGal View Post
                      BLM manages the area.
                      To be clear, in other words, the bypass closure is not on BLM land or under their direct supervision?
                      I am Savvy.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by mrblaine View Post
                        You're not very good at this, so don't make it worse
                        Bite me.

                        I'm not sure what your goal is but it doesn't appear to be one that results in the opening of a closed trail. Stop being a troll.
                        "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."
                        -Margaret Thatcher

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by mrblaine View Post
                          Why does the bypass need to be open?
                          The reasons and logic have already been discussed in this thread, but here it goes again:

                          The bypass needs to stay open because if the only way up Doran is through the gatekeeper, it will in time get filled up with rocks from people stacking so their rig can get through, thus becoming easier and less of a challenge. Saving the bypass will keep the gatekeeper challenging for the hardcore guys. Everyone else can use the bypass for the first part of the trail.
                          Mike in Vista
                          1942 Willys MB, 1956 Willys Wagon

                          Comment


                          • [QUOTE=I'm not sure what your goal is but it doesn't appear to be one that results in the opening of a closed trail. Stop being a troll.[/QUOTE]





                            I agree it seams that his goal is to point out that he feels smarter than everyone and wants to pick apart statements and play word games.
                            An armed society is a polite society. Robert A. Heinlein

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Shadly1 View Post
                              Bite me.

                              I'm not sure what your goal is but it doesn't appear to be one that results in the opening of a closed trail. Stop being a troll.
                              My goal is to gather enough facts about the situation to make an informed decision as to what can be the best solution to this situation.

                              You still haven't proven to me or anyone else that the closure of the bypass affects the actual trail or even part of a recognized trail other than to offer up "we've always done it that way".

                              Trust me, if I wanted to troll you, it's much easier than this.
                              I am Savvy.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by mpc View Post
                                The reasons and logic have already been discussed in this thread, but here it goes again:

                                The bypass needs to stay open because if the only way up Doran is through the gatekeeper, it will in time get filled up with rocks from people stacking so their rig can get through, thus becoming easier and less of a challenge. Saving the bypass will keep the gatekeeper challenging for the hardcore guys. Everyone else can use the bypass for the first part of the trail.
                                Hardcore guys don't care about the Gatekeeper enough to make the drive. I know where the hardcore guys like to spend their time and it's not 10 minutes of fun on Doran.

                                Basically though, it's starting to appear that there are a lot of sentimental reasons to keep the bypass and very few that are actually dealing with facts.

                                That's based on what I've read in this thread so far.
                                I am Savvy.

                                Comment

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