Big Bear

[Mitch]

Always a tough issue. First and foremost...Thank you to all of the AAT people who have donated their personal time and energy to the preservation and hopeful re-opening of currently closed trails. You giving is not nor should not ever be questioned. I have gladly donated many times myself. It still comes down to the real reason for closing trails that have already been there for 30, 60, and 100 plus years. Those historical trails to mines and other historical areas do not have any impact to our fragile forest. A common reaction to "TREAD LIGHTLY" is accepted, but the waste of our tax dollars and the ugly boulders and piles of brush and limbs to "Disquise" existing trails is embarassing at best. That is what the "Sierra Club" types should be in an outrage over. They post a picture of a tire track where they think it doesn't belong and have a fit, yet this ugly defacing of trails is accepted.

I wish I knew the history behind the "Pontiac" trail. This trail does no harm to the SBNF, obviously has been there for many years, leads to old mines and now a War Memorial to Sgt Rowe. Someone please explain to me how this impacts our forest. A response other than "It is not an authorized trail" would be welcomed. Hundreds if not thousands of people over the years have visited this beautiful place that was once and and should be public land for the public.

Sorry for my opinion if it offends anyone else. That is not the intent. And thank you again to those that help save our trail access. Just don't accept the taking away of trails as a trade off for the future limited access to our lands.

Mitch

[karstic]

In regards to Pontiac that trail crosses private property. I have a feeling the closure is being driven by that fact. It is the same parcel of land that 2N68Y goes from Juniper Springs Group Campground past "Doc's" Cabin to 1N01.

[red baron 13]

Misunderstood

I've been quoted numerous times thru this thread. Let me say -- I'm not trying to ruffle feathers. I don't take LIGHTLY everything many of you have done. I feel like I'm on the wrong side here. I'm not going to break thru trail closures, nor go trailblazing. I have numerous maps and ALWAYS make EVERY attempt to be on "official" trails. I've stayed at Doc's cabin - left it better than I found it. When I bought my winch; the first thing I purchased was a tree saver strap. Many have suggested I get involved. That's why I'm on this site. I've started a thread inquiring about 3N93. I've asked about other trails. Final words? I'm trying to learn from you all. I mean no offensive comments. As one jeeper said...I need to think before I type. Agreed. Have a good one all.

[MrBash]

I've been reading every comment on this thread since I posted last night, monitoring it just to see what people have to say about what I wrote.

As I said. I know what not to write. I mentioned that I don't mind having my post deleted because I KNOW it is not the right way to express myself. Two years on the forum and never have I ever written such dramatic feelings or foul words. The words I expressed last night are my deep feelings regarding closure of trails. That is how I FEEL. I am not a political person but I know from right and wrong. My words will, in no way, help with the closure of trails,that I know, but I wrote them because that is what I feel and I wanted to express it unsencored. Someone had to say it....damnit, I said it!

I have been participating on this board since 2008. I have had the pleasure and the honor to wheel with a great group of knowledged four wheelers. I have learned a lot from my senior four-wheelers. When I say senior, I mean more experienced and more knowledged. I have learned by accepting what is right and what is wrong. I have learned to give a helping hand. After-all, we are the ones driving out there every weekend.

When I go wheeling, I stop at every water bottle I see on the ground, every Dominos Pizza box I have come across, turn away from every locked gate and every "no motor vehicles allowed" sign. I respect the land and I respect it to the fullest.

I take what I have learned and I pass that message to new comers. I have had confrontation on Dishpan Springs with a fellow wheeler because He decied to wrap his winch line directly onto a tree with-out a strap and I did NOT let him.

I would like to show great respect to what Mitch wrote: I thank every AAT member that has given up their weekends to help clean up trails with the Forest Service. I too help as often as I can at any given off-highway location/clean-up.

I would just like to repeat that I am not a political person and, YES, there are smarter ways to handle this situation, however, I WROTE WHAT I FEEL DEEP INSIDE, someone had to say it, that's how I feel!

Fishpoet gave recognition to one that spoke of reason amongst the ignorance. I voiced what I felt. If that is being ignorant, then let it be. The words I expressed in my initial post is my deepest thaughts that I have never expressed. I express them now.

I have sold Volkswagens to people who worship the mountains and the land but believe NO ONE should drive around them.I have heard them speak with my own two ears. "We should all watch the mountains from the Interstate 10 or Interstate 15 and just admire how beautiful they are but we should not go there and touch the land because it will ruin it". I have heard this spoken of in front of me...it makes you sick to your stomack...THAT IS WHERE THIS ANGER COMES FROM.

I would like to finish off by saying I will forever respect our lands. I will forever teach/coach/pass along what I have learned to new comeres what is right and what is wrong when traveling in the back country.

To Red Baron13, all members on this forum are the most land loving, four wheel drive enthusients you will ever meet. Fellow MJR folks always get together whether it's an easy drive or a crazy Hammers drive. Everyone is here to help another and have fun with another. You just happened to step into a burning volcanoe thread where there are a lot of mixed feelings. Don't be discouraged. I am sure you recieved plenty of PM's regarding the matter. Enjoy your Jeep my fellow Jeeper and pass what you learn from others onto new comers.

See you on the trails.

[RAT]

You start a bill that Charges an annual 100 dollar or 150 dollar wildlife use per vehicle.
just my .02

You might as well stop right here. This is just another way to get all the trails closed. Heres why;
Are the mojority of off roaders going to pay $100-$150 per yer, per trail to wheel? No, they will go rogue.
If the trails don't generate revenue, what happens? They get closed, just like any business.
And who is going to administer this program, and where is that money going to go? You know exactly where that money will go; anywhere but the forests/deserts.

Your take on the politicians is correct in that if they see they have a revenue generating oportunity in their sphere of influence the will want to exploit it. But with the politicians we have in office now, do you really want to give any more control over our PUBLIC lands to these people? I sure as Hell don't.

[dirtman13]

Shant,
I don’t think anyone questions your respect for the land. I have wheeled with you and I do not for a minute believe that you are a renegade wheeler that goes where ever he wants. For me the issue I had were these comments:

f[]ck3n asshole pricks/waste of life government officials are worried about a few machines driving through where we are entitled to see, take pictures and get away from this f[]ck3n meropolitan bullshit where they want us to stay.....GO f[]ck YOURSELVES AND STICK THOSE TRAIL BLOCKING BOULDERS UP YOUR ASS!!!!

all these dumbf***s wanna block trails. As for the memorial, the forest dept will say ppl can hike up (yea RIGHT).

Before I got involved in AAT I too was angered by the same things you are. Getting involved opened my eyes to the reasoning behind some of the decisions.

As mentioned earlier the SBNF is an Off Highway system not an Off Road system like most of BLM land. If the FS allowed everyone to travel where ever they want eventually the forest would not have the beauty you enjoy so much.

To explain what I mean let’s use Cleghorn as the example. Recently the FS blocked a few unauthorized routes on this trail. Am I happy about this? No. The V-Notch was my favorite part of that trail. But I understand the reasoning behind it and long term affect it has for me to enjoy the forest. Those routes were created by individuals going “Off Road”. As time went on one bypass turned in to another and so on. If the FS continued to allow this type of travel eventually there would be nothing to see accept dirt trails. If this happened the greenies would have a field day on our sport and the proof they needed to show what our sport does to the land.

Some would argue why not just designate them and leave them? So what happens when the next generation of off roaders starts creating more bypasses? Do we designate them as well? When does it stop?

Not everyone resects the forest as you do.

Now if you had wrote:

Feinstein.....GO f[]ck YOURSELF AND STICK THOSE TRAIL BLOCKING BOULDERS UP YOUR ASS!!!!

We would be in complete agreement.:wink:

[FishPOET]

Getting involved opened my eyes to the reasoning behind some of the decisions.

x2

I got involved with the SBNFA OHV Program/SBNF AAT Program in 2002. Greg Hoffman is a fantastic teacher and a great steward of the SBNF. I guarantee you that if you get to know Greg and the program it will change the way you feel about the SBNF. If you recreate on the backroads in the SBNF you need to get involved. Period. No excuses.

The SBNF is far from perfect but they have a proven track record of working with and respecting US the OHV community.

[dirtman13]

Don't forget about the sticky at the top of this section.
[COLOR=#660000]Tired of your trails closing? Get Involved![/COLOR]

[sarah]

I've added another couple of paragraphs to our ongoing tally...
http://www.myjeeprocks.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=17872

EIDT: We are on the same wavelength, Chuck!

[Russ Chung]

.....I wish I knew the history behind the "Pontiac" trail. This trail does no harm to the SBNF, obviously has been there for many years, leads to old mines and now a War Memorial to Sgt Rowe. Someone please explain to me how this impacts our forest. A response other than "It is not an authorized trail" would be welcomed. Hundreds if not thousands of people over the years have visited this beautiful place that was once and and should be public land for the public......

Mitch

Mitch,

The fate of the Pontiac Sluice/Heartbreak Ridge trail was probably sealed in 2005 when the SBNF Forest Land Use Plan was written. The plan is the Forest Service equivalent of an urban city's Master Plan. It designated the area as "Proposed Wilderness". This was the rationale for the designation:

[color="blue"]The Heartbreak Ridge Inventoried Roadless Area is located in the eastern corner of the Mountaintop Ranger District. It is an expansion of the Bighorn Mountains Wilderness; generally bounded on the east by the national forest boundary, on the west by Broom Flat and National Forest System road (NFSR) 2N01, on the north by several NFSRs and topography, and on the south by NFSR 1N01. This is the Antelope Creek and Pipes Canyon watershed, and Big Bear City is six miles west.
The topography is characterized by steep, dry, heavily dissected ridges. Pinyon juniper woodland, Joshua tree woodland, desert riparian and desert chaparral communities are present. Federally listed carbonate, pebble plain, and montane meadow plants are present as is modeled habitat for Least Bell's vireo. This area is also wild burro territory.
Recreation opportunities include hiking, horseback riding (including packing with stock), nature viewing, and hunting. Broom Flat (meadow area) and nearby Juniper Spring (unique water source) are special features.[/color]

In 2007, when the Route Designation Process began, the trail did not appear on any of the route inventory maps and was never considered for inclusion in the designated routes because it was in a Proposed Wilderness area. Here is a link to an MJR thread that is a record of our efforts to get the Forest Service to establish a "cherry stem" and include the trail in the route designation process: http://www.myjeeprocks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8106

Unfortunately, we did not succeed in saving the trail. The final nail in the coffin was when our "friends" in the Wildlands Conservancy purchased a key parcel of private property that the trail crossed. Since the Wildlands Conservancy land bisects the trail, the Forest Service has no interest in attempting to reopen the trail.

Upon the conclusion of the Route Designation Process at the end of last year, the trail officially became "unauthorized for motor vehicle use", although the Forest Service did not put up a gate and you could still hike the trail and could ride a horse up the trail. I haven't been up there recently, so I guess that the trail is now blocked??

[FishPOET]

Some facts about the Alan Rowe Memorial:

On April 4, 2004 a new member joined the Early Bronco Brotherhood, and quickly became friends with several of the individuals already active in the group. His name was Alan Rowe.

A trip to the mountains, and a specific trail, was planned, and had to be canceled. Several members decided to reschedule, but the timing never worked out, for Alan to get a chance to run that trail with the group.

Captain Alan Rowe was deployed for his second tour in Iraq, in August of 2004. On September 3, 2004, Alan was killed by an insurgent IED. We never got to run Heartbreak Ridge with our friend.

In the months that followed some of the members discussed a way to honor our friend, and the sacrifice that he had made for us. One member donated a large steel plate. One member donated the use of a CNC mill. One member donated the professional art/design work. A plaque was engraved to Alan’s honor. On Memorial Day, 2005, some of the brethren loaded their Broncos and made the run to the top of Heartbreak Ridge. One Bronco contained the 300+ lb. plate. Others carried sacks of concrete and some carried water. All carried a driver with a heavy heart, saddened by the loss of a friend.

This year we placed an ammo box and a log at the plaque site. If you can make it up the hill, you are invited to share the tribute to one of AMERICA’S HEROS.

I would like to thank another hero, Viet Nam veteran, Danny Bogner. Danny was instrumental in placing both the memorial and the cache. Thank You Danny! For your service to all of us!

The USFS was never contacted for permission prior to the placement of the memorial.

[red baron 13]

Possible movement?

Doug -- if the road is not blocked yet, is there a chance someone could contact the Bronco club and try to re-locate the monument to an accessible area? I would be willing to assist.

[red baron 13]

Possible movement?

Doug -- if the road is not blocked yet, is there a chance someone could contact the Bronco club and try to re-locate the monument to an accessible area? I would be willing to assist.

[Mitch]

Russ,

Thanks for the comment. I've read the mumbo before. Those same plants and trees were there a hundred years ago when trails were blazed, and are in other places as well by the thousands. They were there when the SBNF acknowledged the trails, approved of it's use, assigned a trail number and route designation to it. "Pontiac" was not authorized, I understand that. But it has been there since the old mining days and nothing has changed since except the dumping of that old car.

Too bad, it's just another trail, and next year it will be a few more........Hopefully 3N16 will not be paved anytime soon, you know to keep that nasty dust down.

[FishPOET]

Some of the folks at the OHV meeting confirmed tonight that Pontiac Sluice/Heartbreak Ridge is not blocked.