dishpan :-(

[daniel_buck]

I wish more black diamond trails would feel like a black diamond. If you can get a bone stock TJ on bald street tires through there with a semi-decent driver without dragging the thing through there, it's probably to easy? Granted, that means more trail maintenance I guess.

Actually, that's not true. I like the ability to take stock vehicles through trails, using bypasses. Just so long as there's actually some challenging spots that you CAN drive through :-) I can't wait to take my little CJ2 through some trails, and take the bypasses, haha :-D

[brokenujoint]

AGREED. Something to be said about building a jeep for yrs and throwing several thousand dollars at it just for a stock jeep with paper plates to come up and still get through. Granted, I get stoked watching them try, but something is to be said about a black diamond trail allowing a stocker to make it through w/o TO much damage. Bypasses are great though. They allow people to push it w/o destroying their rigs.

Problem is, if these trails get to difficult then they most likely they will (sooner or later) be closed up to "fix" them so that fire vehicles can get through them. After all, that's what they were made for in the 1st place. That, or enough severe injuries will cause the same.

[mkjeepers]

Problem is, if these trails get to difficult then they most likely they will (sooner or later) be closed up to "fix" them so that fire vehicles can get through them. After all, that's what they were made for in the 1st place. That, or enough severe injuries will cause the same.

The adopt-a-trail, trails were scheduled to be closed, but the FS allowed Jeep clubs to adopt them and have their clubs maintain them - taking the burden off of the FS. Not sure they would be used as fire access roads, but recreational. THe OHV department requires that the trail be up-kept at the black diamond level. So regular upkeep is needed.

[Mike]

The adopt-a-trail, trails were scheduled to be closed, but the FS allowed Jeep clubs to adopt them and have their clubs maintain them - taking the burden off of the FS. Not sure they would be used as fire access roads, but recreational. THe OHV department requires that the trail be up-kept at the black diamond level. So regular upkeep is needed.

Mike's dead on on this. Dishpan is not a fire access road. The fire vehicles could not have made it up in 2006, much less now. Heck, they popped a sidewall trying to get up one of the side trails on Cleghorn! If it gets too difficult, the AAT group will be asked by the FS to create an easier line for lesser equipped vehicles. Most likely the harder lines will be left as is unless there isn't a by-pass.

[6spdYJ]

When you say "stocker", you mean the Rubi? It's a bit tricky finding the right line for your rig, but it can be done with open diffs on 32's.

[InlandZJ]

"As we watched all these stuck up trailer queens drive away it was on!"

That's some funny stuff!

Lol, i know that sounds funny the way its worded Lol

[AR5150EA]

I did do 2n17x or 3n17x? Without any problem at all! That trail was very easy! Only one part i didnt try because of my passengers so i took the bypass but next time i will not go up the bypass :-)

[AR5150EA]

When you say "stocker", you mean the Rubi? It's a bit tricky finding the right line for your rig, but it can be done with open diffs on 32's.

I had a little open diff, Stocker sport (no nothing)and it even did john bull a few years back, as seeing the trails ive done so far im not sure if i would do it again in a stock sport,since the trails have gotten harder! Than later i bought another sport with some 32'' tires and it ran a little better. But now i have a rubi and i sure am liking it! Just this dam DW is killing me!

[AR5150EA]

[QUOTE= Bypasses are great though. They allow people to push it w/o destroying their rigs.QUOTE]

Yep thats very true! If i put a 5.5'' RE LA kit on with 35'' tires i will be bored again and sell it Again :-) No fun if its too easy! But sucks when you have to turn around too!

[USMC 0369]

Bypasses are great though. They allow people to push it w/o destroying their rigs.

[COLOR="darkred"]SOME bypasses are not part of the trail. We have to be leery of using bypasses. Bypasses are often started by people whose rigs aren't up to the trail, and they blaze a bypass to get around an obstacle. Then another sees their tracks and follow them around...and so on...until people think it's always been there. Gold Mountain is having a big problem with this right now. Portions of the trail are 30ft wide now because of people going around portions of the trial where no bypass is supposed to exist. The "bypasses" are pushing into endangered species habitat. This activity will get trails shut down, if the 'greenies' can show damage to resources and the Forest Service does not have the control needed to stop it. They sue the FS and if they win, we lose.

Black Diamond trails are supposed to require some vehicle modifications. With manufacturers making vehicles more along the lines of modified vehicles from the factory, "stock" today means a lot different things than it did when trail ratings were defined years ago. Perhaps it's something the FS needs to revisit and redefine. But the bottom line here is, if your rig is not up to the trail as it is in front of you...just turn around. Yes it sucks, but the alternative is far worse. There are great trails all over the forest that a person can have plenty of adventure without having to create bypasses. People with stock rigs always want to run the hardest trails to prove they can do it, and then realize they have to modify the trail to make it through; doing things this way is the most dangerous threat to our access rights.

All I'm saying, is try not to use bypasses. I couldn't tell you which ones are legal, and which ones arent. During MJR's time working with the FS one thing we hear constantly is, "You have to close that bypass."[/COLOR]

[daniel_buck]

[COLOR="darkred"]SOME bypasses are not part of the trail. We have to be leery of using bypasses. Bypasses are often started by people whose rigs aren't up to the trail, and they blaze a bypass to get around an obstacle. Then another sees their tracks and follow them around...and so on...until people think it's always been there. Gold Mountain is having a big problem with this right now. Portions of the trail are 30ft wide now because of people going around portions of the trial where no bypass is supposed to exist. The "bypasses" are pushing into endangered species habitat. This activity will get trails shut down, if the 'greenies' can show damage to resources and the Forest Service does not have the control needed to stop it. They sue the FS and if they win, we lose.

Black Diamond trails are supposed to require some vehicle modifications. With manufacturers making vehicles more along the lines of modified vehicles from the factory, "stock" today means a lot different things than it did when trail ratings were defined years ago. Perhaps it's something the FS needs to revisit and redefine. But the bottom line here is, if your rig is not up to the trail as it is in front of you...just turn around. Yes it sucks, but the alternative is far worse. There are great trails all over the forest that a person can have plenty of adventure without having to create bypasses. People with stock rigs always want to run the hardest trails to prove they can do it, and then realize they have to modify the trail to make it through; doing things this way is the most dangerous threat to our access rights.

All I'm saying, is try not to use bypasses. I couldn't tell you which ones are legal, and which ones arent. During MJR's time working with the FS one thing we hear constantly is, "You have to close that bypass."[/COLOR]

After reading what you just wrote, it sounds strange that the FS would be asking you to close the bypasses. Wouldn't it make more sense to make a clearly visible bypass around the major obstacles to stop people from making their own?

At least if the official bypasses are made by AAT groups, and they are made in a way that doesn't make the trail to much wider, the FS can be reasonably sure that everyone else isn't going to blindly blaze their own trail around the obstacles on a whim. Because no matter what you do, you'll probably always have people with vehicles that are technically less equiped than what is required for the trail, the whole 'proving they can do it in a stock vehicle' notion. Might as well just give them an easy way around?

[USMC 0369]

After reading what you just wrote, it sounds strange that the FS would be asking you to close the bypasses. Wouldn't it make more sense to make a clearly visible bypass around the major obstacles to stop people from making their own?

At least if the official bypasses are made by AAT groups, and they are made in a way that doesn't make the trail to much wider, the FS can be reasonably sure that everyone else isn't going to blindly blaze their own trail around the obstacles on a whim. Because no matter what you do, you'll probably always have people with vehicles that are technically less equiped than what is required for the trail, the whole 'proving they can do it in a stock vehicle' notion. Might as well just give them an easy way around?

[COLOR="darkred"]As logical as that seems, it's not what happens. The trail is designated, and from the center of the trail the route is only allowed to be as wide as the trail type allows. Don't quote me on this, because I usually ask Doug (FishPoet) about the letter of the law. I believe single track routes are 24" wide, 50 inch trails are...well self explanatory, and the routes we use are 6ft from center...so 12 feet wide....again if I recall correctly. Making official designated bypasses negates the trail rating system doesn't it? A black diamond trail would be green circle if [we] make bypasses for all the 'stock' vehicles to get through the trail. I'm not trying to be a snob about allowing everyone to enjoy every trail in the forest. But rigs should stick to the trails they are capable of. It also becomes a matter of the footprint left on the forest. The trails are limited in width to keep the footprint as low as possible. Asking to put in bypasses will increase the footprint in the forest, when it's not really necessary.

Look my rig isn't up to Johnson Valley standards...so I keep my butt off Jackhammer. I don't try to blaze a bypass (not that it could be done). The same goes for John Bull, Dishpan, and Holcomb...if a person's rig isn't up to it, just don't do it. The irony of it all, is that a bypass in Johnson Valley wouldn't be illegal or get the area shut down.[/COLOR]

[RAT]

Kudos to what Nick says above. I will reiterate that if your rig is stock, a BLACK DIAMOND trail is not the trail you should choose to travel on anywhere, but especially in the forest. Some think it is selfish for those with more capable rigs to be able to run these "really tough guy" trails, but what about the guy in the stocker that wants to prove his manhood (or whatever) by driving his stock rig on a trail designated too hard for that rig, by rearranging the trail to meet his requirements? Not only is that selfish, but it is just plain, absolute BS. If you want to run trails that your rig is not capable of and you are going to rearrange the trail to fit your abilities, think about spending some $$ on your rig and upgrade instead! That way we don't have to work so hard to fix what you tear down and the trail doesn't get closed by the FS. Sound like a plan??? I'd suggest that when you stack rocks or tear down an obstacle to get over it, to rebuild it or tear down the stack before you leave that obstacle, but that seems to be a bit of trail etiquette long lost on the wheelers coming up these days. Wheeling in Southern California requires some intelligence. Think about the consequences of your actions because they reverberate throughout the off road community in ways you can't even imagine. Learn what rules and laws are applicable where you are planning to wheel. talk to people that have been there and done that, see what they have to say. Just make sure you don't take bad advice and make things worse. Common sense, common sense, common sense....

[brokenujoint]

Well said. I remember growing up with jeeping and when you tried and tried and tried and failed, then you stacked some rocks. When you were done, you turned around and put it back the way it was. That's the way I do it 30 yrs later! I have seen alot of guys stack then say" well, I didn't make it so it's pretty hard, I'll just leave the stacked rocks so the next guy can get through easier." Like it's some favor.

Pack it in, pack it out, if you see trash, pick it up. If you stack, unstack. That's all there is to it!

[MyBrokenJeep]

Common sense, common sense, common sense....

Amen brother!