Red Rock State Park - Nightmare Gulch

[fun4wheelerguy]

FYI......... About the Desert Tortoise

I have been around a desert biologist that explained to me about the tortoise.

If you see one.........DO NOT PICK IT UP !!
In the rainy seasons they eat and drink water.
Thier bodies store water and reuse it internally. If you pick it up it will pee..... That is a death sentence....Then no matter how you try it will not drink water that you give it.

Just information to help keep them alive. Of course I have never seen one dead or alive in the desert either.

Brett

[Wayne_Nosala]

Folks, They want it all closed to motorized use.

I practically grew up riding the Red Rock area.

I attended the first scoping meeting in December , We out numbered the greens 8-1

But This is a war of comment letters

Please submit comments Deadline Jan 5th 2009For first scoping phase

All we are asking for is the current routes we enjoy in the park, Most of it is alredy closed to OHVs

Compliance with current rules has been excellent, the smokescreen tact that CBD
claims is pure BS. The park is in great shape.

Rdingman@Parks.Ca.Gov


RedRock@edaw.com

More info. www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=25064

This will going to be a battle of comment letters

Great letter posted #17 at the following
http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/sho...=725129&page=2

The guy offered others to use some of his writings for template

Thanks
Wayne

[nwoods]

Here is my letter:

December 30, 2008

Re: Red Rock Canyon State Park

Russ Dingman
California State Parks, Tehachapi District
43779 15th Street West
Lancaster, California, 93534-4754

Mr. Dingman:

I’m sure you have been receiving considerable mail and correspondence on the issues regarding potential restrictions and closures of Red Rock Canyon to OHV use. My purpose in writing is to support OHV access to this fantastically start, harsh, and wonderfully remote area.

I have been enjoying the Red Rock Canyon area in a 4x4 vehicle since early 2000, and have not noted any significant impact or deterioration in conditions on any of the trails I frequent, which include Last Chance Canyon, Nightmare Gulch, Goler Gulch, Black Canyon, Red Butte, Opal Canyon, Bickle Camp area, and the areas around Burro Schmidt’s Tunnel. There have been changes of course, but primarily due to weather and water. Human impact has been minor beyond the initial mining impact to the area.

This entire area was explored and opened up thanks to the mining industry, which created the routes and trails we enjoy today. We have vehicle access to thank for creating this recreational region. The animal life in Red Rock Canyon SP area has been exposed to human vehicular activity for nearly 100 years now. It doesn’t make any sense to suddenly prohibit vehicle access after such an extensive history of use, with so little noticeable impact on existing trails.

Statewide, off road recreation is a growing industry. However, recreation areas are being closed and restricted at a phenomenal rate. The outcome of this is to cram more people into fewer and smaller areas. If preservation and reduction of ecological impact is a true goal, it seems illogical to close more areas. It will only increase impact in the few remaining areas that are open.

I realize that a small percentage of the visitors abuse the privilege of using the Park by littering, destroying scenery with new routes, etc., but this will occur regardless of what rules are in place. Sadly, it is human nature at its worst. However, volunteer organizations exist to right these wrongs, and are doing an excellent job. The vast majority of these volunteers are members of OHV organizations. An argument could be made that restricting open vehicle access will significantly reduce the positive work that these volunteers do, and the Park will actually deteriorate more as our underfunded state and federal agencies will not be able to police the area adequately.

I believe that the existing rules at Red Rock Canyon State Park fulfill this requirement of preservation and use.

Please contact me with any questions/discussion.

Respectfully Submitted,

[Max7]

Nice job

Very well written, thanks for the inspiration!
Best, Max7

[Russ Chung]

...I attended the first scoping meeting in December , We out numbered the greens 8-1...But This is a war of comment letters
Please submit comments Deadline Jan 5th 2009 For first scoping phase...All we are asking for is the current routes we enjoy in the park, Most of it is already closed to OHVs.
Compliance with current rules has been excellent, the smokescreen tact that CBD claims is pure BS. The park is in great shape.
Rdingman@Parks.Ca.Gov
RedRock@edaw.com
More info. www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=25064

This will going to be a battle of comment letter. Great letter posted #17 at the following
http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/sho...=725129&page=2
The guy offered others to use some of his writings for template.

Thanks
Wayne

Wayne,

I didn't attend the December meeting, so I don't know what was said, but my understanding of the process is that the purpose of Phase 1 (which I thought ends today but apparently doesn't end until Monday 1/5/09) is to identify the areas of interest to the stakeholders. We need to be as specific as possible and to state why an area is important to us; we can refer to the San Bernardino National Forest Land Management Plan for an example of the amount of detail that goes into a completed land use plan.
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/sanbernardin...dino_part2.pdf
Phase 2 is when we roll up our sleeves and discuss (argue) the alternative plans. If we don't mention an area during Phase 1 it is hard to argue for it during Phase 2, so we need to be sure to include all the areas that we are interested in keeping accessible for off highway use (and to make the distinction between off-highway and off-road use), and to be prepared to argue for them during Phase 2.

Russ

[BillyGoat]

Honestly, if everybody kept on the designated trails BLM and the greenies might compromise. Just being there yesterday I noticed that the small rocks they use to try to keep people on designated routes really didn't work. I wouldn't care if everything was fenced off like they do in Hungry Valley OHV as long as we can still wheel the designated routes and enjoy the canyons.

[Wayne_Nosala]

Wayne,

I didn't attend the December meeting, so I don't know what was said, but my understanding of the process is that the purpose of Phase 1 (which I thought ends today but apparently doesn't end until Monday 1/5/09) is to identify the areas of interest to the stakeholders. We need to be as specific as possible and to state why an area is important to us; we can refer to the San Bernardino National Forest Land Management Plan for an example of the amount of detail that goes into a completed land use plan.
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/sanbernardin...dino_part2.pdf
Phase 2 is when we roll up our sleeves and discuss (argue) the alternative plans. If we don't mention an area during Phase 1 it is hard to argue for it during Phase 2, so we need to be sure to include all the areas that we are interested in keeping accessible for off highway use (and to make the distinction between off-highway and off-road use), and to be prepared to argue for them during Phase 2.

Russ

Russ,

You are right, I did not mean to imply this is the
only chance to wiegh in, Its the first scoping period.

I beleive they will crunch what they plan along
with the suggestions from the this first scoping phase

Then come up with an list of alternetives for us
to comment on the next go around.

This particular plan is being fast tracked, I beleive
they want it done by 2010

Wayne

[Wayne_Nosala]

Honestly, if everybody kept on the designated trails BLM and the greenies might compromise. Just being there yesterday I noticed that the small rocks they use to try to keep people on designated routes really didn't work. I wouldn't care if everything was fenced off like they do in Hungry Valley OHV as long as we can still wheel the designated routes and enjoy the canyons.

Carfull watcha wish for, they want No motorized
access to the park. There is no compromise.

Wayne

[Nipple Twister]

FYI.....seemed to fit in with the rest...

The following was from LA Weekly.......


The Tortoise and the Tank: August 21, 2008
Relocated tortoises are dying in large numbers, next phase of Fort Irwin expansion put on hold
By Joe Donnelly
Published on December 30, 2008 at 8:22pm
Last spring I witnessed one of the strangest military operations one could imagine — the largest tortoise airlift in history. The tortoise transport was part of a long, fought-over expansion of the sprawling Army training grounds about 30 miles north and east of Barstow. More than 670 tortoises were relocated, some by truck and many by helicopter, from the southern fringes of Fort Irwin to a new location on lands overseen by the Bureau of Land Management.

The relocation of the endangered California desert tortoise seemed to usher in the final chapter of a 20-year battle between the tanks of Fort Irwin and the ancient species over lands that both Army and tortoise advocates regarded as essential to their conflicting interests. The Army has long held that it needed the expansion of Fort Irwin — a mind-boggling military-industrial Xanadu where Iraq is being recreated brick by brick, where pretend mosques get blown up on Wednesdays and where local Barstow residents are put to work playing pretend Shiites and Shias — to train effectively for modern desert warfare. Environmentalists said the Mojave population of desert tortoises would be seriously jeopardized by uprooting so many tortoises from one of their few thriving habitats. After much back and forth, and some would say a post-9/11 politicization of the process, the Department of the Interior finally agreed to the Army’s plans.

On a windy and hot spring day, I watched as a team of biologists placed the preternaturally anthropomorphic animals — they give the impression of being the desert’s dignified elder statesmen — under creosote bushes or in prefab burrows. As soon as they were able, most of the animals immediately headed back home, now miles across an unforgiving and potentially dangerous landscape. If they survived the trek, the relocated tortoises would eventually find themselves fenced off from their old habitat. At the time, I joked, sort of, that the fence could end up being a desert-tortoise Wounded Knee. Some of the biologists working in the field laughed nervously along with me.

As it turns out, the analogy wasn’t far off. Since the relocation, many tortoises have perished either trying to get back home or attempting to make it in a new, unfamiliar habitat. Drought-deprived coyotes are being blamed for many of the losses, which have rapidly approached the acceptable mortality rate of 136 tortoises. The initial relocation was to be the first of three phases to accommodate Fort Irwin’s planned expansion, which was to continue to the west and east. In light of the carnage, those plans have been shelved indefinitely. One guesses the impact on our national security will be minimal. The lasting impact on one of the few thriving desert tortoise populations in the Mojave Desert remains to be seen.

From “The Tortoise and the Tank” by Joe Donnelly

A red helicopter appears over a patch of mountains, ferrying a payload of tortoises. It circles around and then lands in a flat area just above the wash where we are standing. Out of the helicopter emerge 14 tortoises, Dr. Paula Kahn, charged with placing this crew, and a burly pilot straight out of central casting. It’s critical to get the tortoises out of their crates and under a creosote bush or into a burrow before it gets too hot.

I decide I can’t stand around and watch, and pitch in to help Dr. Kahn and the pilot release the crate-bound passengers. Each tortoise is measured, weighed, checked for signs of upper-respiratory disease and placed — rather crudely, it seems — under a creosote bush and left to its fate. Ever the optimist, [our military handler John] Wagstaffe opines that the tortoises must have enjoyed their helicopter ride because they don’t appear to have shit or pissed themselves, which could dehydrate them and also attract predators.

I ask Dr. Kahn for her take on our friends’ future here.“ They are really, really bright animals, but you have to remember, some of these tortoises — we’re taking them out of a home in which they’ve lived for 40, 50, 60 years. It’s the only thing they know and we’re going to take them here and say, ‘Okay, new place, different plants, everything’s in a new location ... so it’s going to take them some time.”

[womb raider 940]

I didnt know the tortoises live that long. being I have never seen one. I am curious what they look like.


well I googled them and I would recognize it now.

Says

Curious Facts

The Desert Tortoise is able to live where ground temperature may exceed 140 degrees F.

95% of a Desert Tortoise’s life is spent in underground burrows

Ravens have caused more than 50 percent of juvenile Desert Tortoise deaths in some areas of the Mojave Desert.

Adult tortoises may survive a year or more without access to water.

Desert Tortoise populations have declined by 90 percent since the 1980s

Ravens are now one of the Desert turtle’s primary predators.

Much of the tortoise’s water intake comes from moisture in the grasses and wildflowers they consume in the spring.

It is unlawful to touch, harm, harass or collect a wild Desert Tortoise.

[nwoods]

Desert Tortoise populations have declined by 90 percent since the 1980s

Ravens are now one of the Desert turtle’s primary predators.

Hmmm...when was Nightmare Gulch access restricted to protect the Birds of Prey (Ravens) in that area? And now they want to shut it down altogether to protect the tortoise? Sounds like a totally closed Red Rock Canyon areas spells Open Season on the protected Tortoise's from the protected Birds!

[Nipple Twister]

I just can't take it.......

......aaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!.........

[nwoods]

I just learned today from a friend that state funds have been pulled back and the Red Rock Plan is again on hold. This means that "formal" work towards closures is on hold also, and the status quo is in place while things are on hold.

Of course, there could always be emergency actions, i.e.; the Steep Trail which was closed three years ago after washout. But, by and large, they are just kicking the can down the road for when there is funding to tackle the issue... though there is always the unfortunate possibility of a lawsuit forcing closures until a plan is developed...