ACTION ALERT: Doran Dr./ Oddessa Cyn Gate Keeper bypass closed off

[JeepGal]

That's not the answer to the question I asked. I asked if the Gatekeeper has always been at it's current level of difficulty. I know for a fact based on the numbers of folks that I know that that have been there over the years, it's only getting worse and as early as 7 or 8 years ago, it was easily doable by 33" tired vehicles.

I honestly dont know how long its been the way it is. I cant locate a date when the road washed out. I dont know when it was "easily do-able" by 33" tires. When I started going there in 2002, it was certainly not do-able with 33's. I cant answer before that.

The logic I won't ever buy into is doing something or not doing something because there will always be a way around it. Just because 10,000 folks are doing something illegal, does not set a precedent to be perpetuated or condoned. That's the logic I refer to.

Ill agree with you here. But we dont want it to become another situation where "One (or a few) bad apples spoil the bunch."

Is it truly a trail that's being closed?

I was very careful on how I worded that sentence. "...we could eventually end up with another closed trail." I've heard at least one person at the Regional Park state something to the affect of "Off-roaders have no business being back there anyway. " We dont need this mindset to perpetuate. We can help change that by letting them know that we are here to help.

My apologies, but I'm not quite getting the nuance or subtle differences here. There were pics shown of alternate routes being blocked with phone poles and how willing everyone was to jump in and help the PTB put them up to block routes that are better not taken. Routes by the way, that look to have been taken by hundreds over the years.

Define the nuance for me because those phone poles look to be denying access to an established route while directing folks to a more difficult portion of the trail.

The pictures that Julie (Desert Jewel) posted were of 2n17. The alternate routes in the pictures were requested closed by the San Bernardino National Forest. From what very little I know of the area, the bypass were often "option more difficult" routes. The primary difference here was that they did not hamper one from driving the trail fron beginning to end. They were eroded offshoots of the original trail.

Why can't it be filled in permanently? Not possible or not acceptable?

Again, I dont know the answer to that. Of course, we dont want to fill it in permanently. Im sure the Highyway Department had considered the road permanent when they built it back in the 30's. It was washed away numerous times before they abandoned its repair. So can the Gatekeeper be permanently filled? I guess that all depends on your definition of permanent.

Where have I suggested that?

rereading your posts, no you havent. But you sure are playing devils advocate.

Let me get a bit of further clarification, and I have this exact conversation with many folks who have run Doran. You suggest that I load up my rig, haul it all the way to Calico, and then run a trail that has 50 feet of 10+ difficulty so I can spend the rest of the time on something that is readily done in a stock rig on 29's?

No more then I would suggest someone on 33's open and unlocked go to the Hammers. My point is if you dont want to take my word for the description of the area, then drive up and see for yourself. Some folks have well built rigs that enjoy the thrill of the Gatekeeper, but are still not ready for the pounding repetition of the Hammers. This trail is for them, and everyone else who chooses to take the by-pass.

What is actually so bad about bringing the whole trail to about the same level of difficulty and not having to worry about "bypasses"?

I understand your point. I'll never run it, why does it matter to ME? But the point is that there are many many who would be disappointed to see the Gatekeeper go. Shouldnt we at least try to work out something with the Regional Park before losing the bypass? It's worth the effort. I'm not afraid to take the time to talk to them, and work out an amicable solution. Its good for the off-road community for interactions like this take place.

Tam

[mrblaine]

For as long as I know the Gatekeeper has been in its current state.

That's not the answer to the question I asked. I asked if the Gatekeeper has always been at it's current level of difficulty. I know for a fact based on the numbers of folks that I know that that have been there over the years, it's only getting worse and as early as 7 or 8 years ago, it was easily doable by 33" tired vehicles.

The area is basically sandy hills, and unless they build a fence around Calico Campground, (which is what we're suggesting), there will always be an illegal bypass available. If youre truly interested in this topic, you should go out and look yourself. Yes, I do suggest you try to buy into this logic.

The logic I won't ever buy into is doing something or not doing something because there will always be a way around it. Just because 10,000 folks are doing something illegal, does not set a precedent to be perpetuated or condoned. That's the logic I refer to.

If we dont find a permanent solution, we could eventually end up with another closed trail.

Is it truly a trail that's being closed?

My apologies, but I'm not quite getting the nuance or subtle differences here. There were pics shown of alternate routes being blocked with phone poles and how willing everyone was to jump in and help the PTB put them up to block routes that are better not taken. Routes by the way, that look to have been taken by hundreds over the years.

Define the nuance for me because those phone poles look to be denying access to an established route while directing folks to a more difficult portion of the trail.

I dont understand what youre saying. Yes, it would close it for all but the most built, but it certainly is not the option we choose. Which other options are you suggesting? Filling in the Gatekeeper is the only other option. But it cant be filled in permanently, therefore, the by-pass becomes a problem again.

Why can't it be filled in permanently? Not possible or not acceptable?

Why do you suggest that we limit this very popular trail to only the most built rigs?

Where have I suggested that?

Correct. I ran Doran Scenic Loop by taking the bypass. I've never ran the Gatekeeper, nor do I ever intend to. About 99% of drivers take the by-pass.



What other questions did you have?

Have you ever driven the Doran Scenic Loop? Have you run the Gatekeeper? I consider you the most experienced driver and your Jeep the best built that I know of. Im certain that the Gatekeeper would still be quite a challenge for you.

Let me get a bit of further clarification, and I have this exact conversation with many folks who have run Doran. You suggest that I load up my rig, haul it all the way to Calico, and then run a trail that has 50 feet of 10+ difficulty so I can spend the rest of the time on something that is readily done in a stock rig on 29's?

What is actually so bad about bringing the whole trail to about the same level of difficulty and not having to worry about "bypasses"?

These are exactly the kinds of questions that the BLM, the County and the Regional Park will be asking. I appreciate youre making me take the time to get my thoughts in order and ready for our meeting.

Tam

[JeepGal]

Blaines questions got me thinking about the history of the Doran Scenic Loop.

Ive found a few references to it.

Here in the Desert Magazine Dated Nov 1967 pages 25-26, at the end of the article it states:

To see the rugged Calico Mountains as they were in the old days, you may drive your own vehicle up the Doran Scenic Drive. To reach it, go east from Calico along the foot of the mountains. At the sign "Scenic Doran Drive," turn up the road and follow it for five miles through the thrilling, forbidding, but wonderful Odessa and Bismark Canyons. In some places the road winds through rock walls and is wide enough for only one car. You wonder how old time mule skinners drove their teams and wagons along the tortuous road. It is a one-way drive which forma a loop and is no place for a vehicle in poor mechanical condition or one with doubtful tires

Desert Magazine January 1948 Page 26-30

So early one morning we zeroed the speedometer at Calico and set out through the clear fall sunshine fop Mule Canyon. The road we followed and its by-paths open storehouses of history and scenic beauty. Every visitor at least should find time to make the Doran (Odessa Canyon) and Phillips circular drives.

Im looking for more Ill post em up here when I find them.

Tam

[JeepGal]

Has the Gatekeeper always been in it's current state? Or was it passable by lesser vehicles at any point?

For as long as I know the Gatekeeper has been in its current state.

I'll never buy into that logic, don't even suggest I try.

The area is basically sandy hills, and unless they build a fence around Calico Campground, (which is what we're suggesting), there will always be an illegal bypass available. If youre truly interested in this topic, you should go out and look yourself. Yes, I do suggest you try to buy into this logic. If we dont find a permanent solution, we could eventually end up with another closed trail.

It would close it for all but the most built given the option you have chosen. There are other options that make the bypass a non issue.

I dont understand what youre saying. Yes, it would close it for all but the most built, but it certainly is not the option we choose. Which other options are you suggesting? Filling in the Gatekeeper is the only other option. But it cant be filled in permanently, therefore, the by-pass becomes a problem again.

Why do you suggest that we limit this very popular trail to only the most built rigs?

I think you're trying to say you ran Doran and bypassed the difficult part via the alternate route? Correct?

Correct. I ran Doran Scenic Loop by taking the bypass. I've never ran the Gatekeeper, nor do I ever intend to. About 99% of drivers take the by-pass.

Mostly

What other questions did you have?

Have you ever driven the Doran Scenic Loop? Have you run the Gatekeeper? I consider you the most experienced driver and your Jeep the best built that I know of. Im certain that the Gatekeeper would still be quite a challenge for you.

These are exactly the kinds of questions that the BLM, the County and the Regional Park will be asking. I appreciate youre making me take the time to get my thoughts in order and ready for our meeting.

Tam

[Materdaddy]

As it sits right now, The Doran Scenic Loop is a stepping stone for those who are in the beginning stages of deciding how to build their vehicles. I ran Doran when my Jeep was on 31s and NO lift, open, with only rocker protection. It opened my eyes to what I needed to do next.

29s, no lift, open, plus rockers here too! I only ran it downhill like that though.

[mrblaine]

Blaine-

Doran Scenic Loop has quite a history. It was originally a single lane, one-way Scenic Byway that lured drivers off busy Interstate 15 to see a bit of the backcountry. I couldnt find a date, but Ive heard it was in the 1930's or 40's. Parts of the original asphalt can still be seen and driven on.

It flooded and was rebuilt numerous times, but finally was left abandoned.

The entrance to Doran Scenic Loop has so severly eroded that it is only passable by the most extreme and couragious drivers and vehicles.

So in other words, this trail is identical to Surprise Canyon minus the riparian habitat?

The wide majority use the bypass (which has been there for decades). The rest of the trail is considered moderate with rocky ledges and loose rocks. It is one of the routes to Bismark Mine.

Sounds more and more like Surprise by the minute.

If we were to lose this by-pass, it would essentially make Doran Scenic Loop a one way trail, where drivers would have to turn around at the Gatekeeper.

Has the Gatekeeper always been in it's current state? Or was it passable by lesser vehicles at any point?

Even if they were to keep the by-pass closed, most anyone could find a way around it. (I believe there is already an illegal bypass to the bypass) We discourage this practice but realize that it is unavoidable, we cant control everyone.

I'll never buy into that logic, don't even suggest I try.

We are working with the County, The Regional Parks office and Calico Regional Park to come up with a permanent solution to all parties involved.

Side note: The trail usually takes a few hours to run one way. Most folks probably wouldnt continue down Doran if they had to turn around at the end, just to come back up it. Closing the bypass would Close the Doran half for all but the most built vehicles.

It would close it for all but the most built given the option you have chosen. There are other options that make the bypass a non issue.

As it sits right now, The Doran Scenic Loop is a stepping stone for those who are in the beginning stages of deciding how to build their vehicles. I ran Doran when my Jeep was on 31s and NO lift, open, with only rocker protection. It opened my eyes to what I needed to do next.

I think you're trying to say you ran Doran and bypassed the difficult part via the alternate route? Correct?

Did that answer your questions?

Tam

Mostly

[JeepGal]

Blaine-

Doran Scenic Loop has quite a history. It was originally a single lane, one-way Scenic Byway that lured drivers off busy Interstate 15 to see a bit of the backcountry. I couldnt find a date, but Ive heard it was in the 1930's or 40's. Parts of the original asphalt can still be seen and driven on.

It flooded and was rebuilt numerous times, but finally was left abandoned.

The entrance to Doran Scenic Loop has so severly eroded that it is only passable by the most extreme and couragious drivers and vehicles. The wide majority use the bypass (which has been there for decades). The rest of the trail is considered moderate with rocky ledges and loose rocks. It is one of the routes to Bismark Mine.

If we were to lose this by-pass, it would essentially make Doran Scenic Loop a one way trail, where drivers would have to turn around at the Gatekeeper.

Even if they were to keep the by-pass closed, most anyone could find a way around it. (I believe there is already an illegal bypass to the bypass) We discourage this practice but realize that it is unavoidable, we cant control everyone.

We are working with the County, The Regional Parks office and Calico Regional Park to come up with a permanent solution to all parties involved.

Side note: The trail usually takes a few hours to run one way. Most folks probably wouldnt continue down Doran if they had to turn around at the end, just to come back up it. Closing the bypass would Close the Doran half for all but the most built vehicles.

As it sits right now, The Doran Scenic Loop is a stepping stone for those who are in the beginning stages of deciding how to build their vehicles. I ran Doran when my Jeep was on 31s and NO lift, open, with only rocker protection. It opened my eyes to what I needed to do next.

Did that answer your questions?

Tam

[mrblaine]

Yes, the main complaint is the bypass is closed off.

Okay.

Yes, with the bypass closed off, you can have to up or down Gatekeeper or Odessa to start or end the run. Either way you have to back track on Doran.

I'm not sure what you just said. "You can have to up or down". What does that mean?

The bypass is still part of the original trail.

That part is still fuzzy. The trail looks to originally be a mine access road. How can the bypass be part of the original road and be called a "bypass"?

Given what I know of typical mine access roads in the bottoms of canyons, they were originally accessed by 2 wheel drive vehicles or stock 4x's. Then when the access to the mine was no longer needed, the Offroaders used them and without regular maintenance, they become eroded and washed out by a variety of causes such as rain and spinning tires.

Rock barricades are on BLM land.

Thank you.

The intent of the closure is to prevent OHV's from going into Calico. Thus, why we are working with Calico & Regional Parks to come to a compromise to move the barrier up closer to Calico so the bypass is still open.

Why does the bypass need to be open?

[Desert Jewel]

Help me out a bit here. I've been following this thread and I'm still a bit confused, actually more than a bit.

Is the main complaint that the bypass is closed off?

Does the closure of the bypass affect usage of the trail in any way?

Was the bypass ever or is it still part of the original trail?


The rock barricades that I see pics of - whose land are they on?

What is the intent of the closure?

Yes, the main complaint is the bypass is closed off.

Yes, with the bypass closed off, you can have to up or down Gatekeeper or Odessa to start or end the run. Either way you have to back track on Doran.

The bypass is still part of the original trail.

Rock barricades are on BLM land.

The intent of the closure is to prevent OHV's from going into Calico. Thus, why we are working with Calico & Regional Parks to come to a compromise to move the barrier up closer to Calico so the bypass is still open.

[mrblaine]

Help me out a bit here. I've been following this thread and I'm still a bit confused, actually more than a bit.

Is the main complaint that the bypass is closed off?

Does the closure of the bypass affect usage of the trail in any way?

Was the bypass ever or is it still part of the original trail?


The rock barricades that I see pics of - whose land are they on?

What is the intent of the closure?

[Shadly1]

This is cool! Whatever gets decided, I'm in. I've never built a split rail fence before though.

[JeepGal]

Tam,

Have you discussed this with Mitzelfelt's rep? You may want to consider asking him the feasibility of the County supplying the material and we'll supply the labor.

Something else to consider, the material should conform to the "look" of the campground and blend it so as not to be an eyesore.

I think they might go for it.

Mr Mitzelfelts rep Jesse Flores referred me to The County Regional Park, Mr Potter. I am meeting with all of them, plus the BLM next week.

I've only offered the labor so far. He actually asked his assistant, Beverly, to make sure that we understood that what we were offering was for and on Regional Park property. I guess they dont get alot of volunteer labor I want to have a back-up plan in the event that the County/Regional Park doesnt have the funds. I also wanted to have some ideas of what could work.

My personal opinion is a split rail fence. They are used throughout Calico Ghost town as well. Though anything rustic is going to fit well.



If they can provide us with the materials, well do whatever it is that they want (within reason).

Tam

[Dezertdog]

When a resolution is reached. I am all in to help out.
115 degrees or not.

Scott

[Roger]

Tam,

Have you discussed this with Mitzelfelt's rep? You may want to consider asking him the feasibility of the County supplying the material and we'll supply the labor.

Something else to consider, the material should conform to the "look" of the campground and blend it so as not to be an eyesore.

I think they might go for it.

[Jason]

We have many truck and trailer owners on this board

You let me know when and I will haul what I can.