New thread / thought process

[USMC 0369]

written in first person experiences instead of a non-biased reporting style (he is a reporter/colunmnist)

Actually, Philip Klansky is a professor at university in San Fransisco. But I do see both sides to this issue.

I was VERY anti Philip Klansky...and ergo anti-orvwatch...

I did the mistake that we're talking about others making. I'm old enough I can admit when I've made a quick judgement. I read this blog. in it's entire context.

HOWEVER...I pose this question...how many times have [we] seen another offroader doing something that we KNOW would be detrimental to the sport if the wrong person snapped a photograph and posted it on-line or brought it to a meeting...and yet we didn't say anything to them?

Better yet...have I done anything to that effect?

I've seen off-roaders who drive with open beers in their vehicle... "It's only a beer.", "What about it?" is mostly what I hear. To wit, "Uh...it's illegal, and I don't think it's a good representation of our community." or "You're speaking for all off-roaders right now...what are you saying."

Thats usually followed by some form of, "F@#$K YOU", or "You don't have to wheel with me..." and I don't.

Bottom line... I was too quick to judgement about Philip and about orvwatch as a group. In an effort to keep LEGAL free-wheeling areas open, we may find many allies amongst those that want to STOP ILLEGAL wheeling because JV is the ONLY place to do it in and around the Morongo Basin.

[RAT]

Here is Mr. Klaski's response to my email:

Mr. Kaufmann -- thank you for your thoughtful letter. We believe that those who ride legally and respectfully have both an opportunity as well as obligation to educate the lawless. There are many riders who are members of our organization and they are working hard to educate the riding public.


Our organization was formed because of widespread trespass and destruction of our private property and harassment and intimidation by riders who retaliate against their neighbors when they call for relief.


I have been physically attacked on my own property by a rider on a quad while I was armed with only a camera as he rode past "no trespassing" signs right onto my property. His comment to me (minus the swearing) "I will ride wherever I want." I have neighbor who received death threats and a visit by gang of motorcyclists cutting donuts into his private property. I know a woman in her 70s who feels like she is a prisoner in her own home on holiday weekends. One of our member's dogs were poisoned by riders retaliating against a call to the Sheriff when they rode day and night past his home and trespassed on his property. There are many more horror stories -- we hear them all the time. This is part of our motivation to advocate for more public education, law enforcement, and stiffer penalties. Johnson Valley is the largest ORV open area in the entire country, yet trespass of our private and public lands continues at an alarming rate.


You are invited to attend a conference on April 5th in Joshua Tree where we welcome the participation of responsible riders who want be part of the solution. We would like to see riders like yourself write letters to the editor in the local newspapers encouraging other riders to act within the law.


When I visited the myjeeprocks site where you posted your letter to me, I was disturbed to find numerous derogatory posts with name-calling, disregard for the law and disrespect for others. As a participant in these sites, you can begin to address the problem by countering this kind of abuse.


-- Phil Klasky, Community ORV Watch

[mrblaine]

When I visited the myjeeprocks site where you posted your letter to me, I was disturbed to find numerous derogatory posts with name-calling, disregard for the law and disrespect for others. As a participant in these sites, you can begin to address the problem by countering this kind of abuse.


-- Phil Klasky, Community ORV Watch

Every single person that feels the need to comment on anything about the JV issue needs to keep the above comment in mind. There are a lot of folks watching this and if we don't step up and set the example, we become at the very least apathetic if not appearing to side with the outlaws at best.

[RAT]

Put the shoe on the other foot.

I do put the shoe on the other foot. I'm not arguing his point; I'm arguing the way they are being reported.

You need to go read those articles again. Read them and replace the word "offroader" with outlaw and they will make sense. They are not talking about you and I, or anyone that I wheel with.

Again, it's not what's being said, it's how it's being said. More specific statements should be used to open the story (Motorcylce riders without spark arrestors vs. ORV, a general term that covers a wide variety of users). The average person forms an opinion in the first few lines of an artcile, sentences in a converstation, etc. and if the rest of the artcile/conversation is not persuasivie and factual enough that opinion is not changed.

They are referencing the same folks that would cause you to be phenomenally irritated if you were to see them participating in the same activities.

not specific enough to remove them from the general off road poulation.

What would you do if you saw someone off trail in Big Bear?

Been there, done that. Got the finger and a F-you dick head...

Anyone reading those articles needs to find a way to delineate themselves from the cause of the problem, take their emotions out of it and understand the finger of blame is not pointed at them, but at the outlaw offroaders.

If you don't recreate offroad on public lands and in the Forest in an irresponsible manner, then the article is not about you nor are you the reason that PEER exists.

I personally don't condone one single act of reckless offroading and if everyone who owned an offroad vehicle felt and acted the same way, those articles nor PEER would exist.

It's not off roaders I'm worried about, it's non off roaders who don't have any idea about us other than what they read in these articles. Truth or not, if the information is put out there in manner that makes us all look bad, it's bad for all of us.

[RAT]

Every single person that feels the need to comment on anything about the JV issue needs to keep the above comment in mind. There are a lot of folks watching this and if we don't step up and set the example, we become at the very least apathetic if not appearing to side with the outlaws at best.

That's part of what this is about. That's being discussed already.

[RAT]

Bottom line... I was too quick to judgement about Philip and about orvwatch as a group. In an effort to keep LEGAL free-wheeling areas open, we may find many allies amongst those that want to STOP ILLEGAL wheeling because JV is the ONLY place to do it in and around the Morongo Basin.

My point to Mr. Klaski, exactly.

[mrblaine]

It's not off roaders I'm worried about, it's non off roaders who don't have any idea about us other than what they read in these articles. Truth or not, if the information is put out there in manner that makes us all look bad, it's bad for all of us.

This has been my cross to bear if you will, from day one.

If we as responsible offroaders don't make the distinction that we are not the problem, then we can easily be made to look bad and lumped in with the outlaws.

I've made the point around many a campfire that my "brethren" offroaders are not exactly who I would like to go to bat for in a land use fight. It's difficult to spend the time and energy it takes for something like this while watching your neighbors in the desert send their kids through your camp at all hours on their mini quads while glaring at you daring you to say something.

It disturbs me that in order to keep my access, I have to fight for theirs, but that doesn't devalue the need.

At the end of the day, I may not be happy with my bedfellows, but I still need the bed.

My point being that if I struggle with the delineation, how can I expect others not connected with the offroad world to feel any differently.

We don't do enough to separate ourselves from those who give us a bad image and that single point will cost us more dearly than anything else. The worst part of all is that we are the vast majority and our apathy will be our ruination.

I'm as guilty as the next. We have folks in our camp from time to time that have no issue with drinking and driving and at some point there will be a delineation. If I step up and say something I'm accused of being the camp Daddy. If I don't, I'm apathetic and the lack of action translates into condonement.

That needs to change.

[sarah]

Thanks for a great thread guys. I haven't had a chance yet to read the articles and other links yet - but I will hopefully today.

[FishPOET]

When I visited the myjeeprocks site where you posted your letter to me, I was disturbed to find numerous derogatory posts with name-calling, disregard for the law and disrespect for others. As a participant in these sites, you can begin to address the problem by countering this kind of abuse.

Typical greenie stereotype of the OHV community.

Did Mr. Phil Klasky post a single FACT to back up his statement? I have been active on this board for two years now and it would take me the better part of a week to search threads and I would not be able to find Numerous posts with disregard for the law

I have been fighting the land closure battle for over 20 years.

How many OHV trails have we gained in the last 20 years?

How many acres of OHV land have we gained in the last 20 years?

The truth of the matter is that we have lost thousands of OHV trails in the last 20 years.

We have lost millions of OHV acres in the last 20 years.

Wilderness areas have increased by millions of acres in the last 20 years.

OHV sales and use has increased while places to ride have decreased.

Don't fall into the same old trap believing the extreme greenies are our friends. They are well funded and well organized with a mission statement of ridding the entire country of all OHV travel. Until Mr Klasky proves to me that he can speak intelligently about OHV use he will not be my bedfellow.

[mrblaine]

wow, that's a nice rebuttal. I tire of the finger pointing lefties that cry about the "bad people." they never have any names and they are allways the victims and they can never do anything about it on their own, they allways cry about how law enforcement can't do enough, or the politicians dont hear their cries... and these same people are afraid of guns and big 4x4s and motorcycles... they are limp wristed sissies and the govornment is down on one knee bending their ear to them. It makes me sick. and it looks like the pied piper for these bastards is gonna be the next president. I wanna puke.

FishPoet, there's one example

[mrblaine]

These nuts even have their own songs and their own "Cow Players" to perform them. I don't know if these types can be reasonable.

http://www.orvwatch.com/node/12

FishPoet, there's another example

[mrblaine]

Yes, thank you. Please be careful not to employ the same tactics that this gentleman does; lables and pidgeon-holing does no one any good.

Blaine, Thanks for the news.

FishPoet, there's another.

[FishPOET]

Numerous posts with disregard for the law

Did you by chance have trouble understanding my post?

[RAT]

FishPoet, there's another.

Did I mention something that was not true?

[mrblaine]

Did you by chance have trouble understanding my post?

No, did you misunderstand the part about name calling and disrespect?

When I visited the myjeeprocks site where you posted your letter to me, I was disturbed to find numerous derogatory posts with name-calling, disregard for the law and disrespect for others. As a participant in these sites, you can begin to address the problem by countering this kind of abuse.

I suspect strongly that he means if you can't distinguish between the message and the messenger, then you condone illegal behavior. A point I've very poorly been trying to get across.