Winch Set up

[Old Fart]

:hijack:

Male dancer?

Nope, I don't dance

[aston]

In a plant where I worked the guys had to terminate cables to carry 400A at 600V. They crimped the connections. However, the crimp tool was massive and we often performed pull tests to verify the crimp was correct.

All this is way beyond the average Jeeper, myself included. So I soldered using a butane torch and kept feeding in the solder. I wrapped a damp cloth around the insulation to reduce the damage caused by the heat.

If the joint can not carry the load it will overheat. Next time you do some serious winching check the temperature of the lugs.

In another application we checked joint integrity using optical thermometers while power was applied.

BTW when I replaced the stock power cables with "welding" cable, the cranking speed went up significantly.

[Old Fart]

In a plant where I worked the guys had to terminate cables to carry 400A at 600V. They crimped the connections. However, the crimp tool was massive and we often performed pull tests to verify the crimp was correct.

All this is way beyond the average Jeeper, myself included. So I soldered using a butane torch and kept feeding in the solder. I wrapped a damp cloth around the insulation to reduce the damage caused by the heat.

If the joint can not carry the load it will overheat. Next time you do some serious winching check the temperature of the lugs.

In another application we checked joint integrity using optical thermometers while power was applied.

BTW when I replaced the stock power cables with "welding" cable, the cranking speed went up significantly.

Greater cross sectional area is your friend - plus I would imagine that you upped the wire size at the same time. Less voltage drop that way (and the cables will heat less - VD increases as temperature goes up)

[aston]

Greater cross sectional area is your friend - plus I would imagine that you upped the wire size at the same time. Less voltage drop that way (and the cables will heat less - VD increases as temperature goes up)

You bet! I think I did 4/0, complete overkill of course

It was as if I had installed a high-speed starter :yay:

We also had a superconductor that would carry 850 amps at 10 volts. The current rating at room temp was something like 2 amps!

[Old Fart]

IIRC, my winch cabling is #4/0 also (both leads) and i upgraded my solenoid wiring to #2. Had it all laying around from an "emergency" BDFB I had to build one weekend for a data center.

[TJSUPE]

thanks for all of the information. I hope to get my new toy this weekend. I am going to install it as is and upgrade the wiring as $$ permits.

[TJSUPE]

Well I received my new toy. I will install it this Sunday as is. Seems pretty simple to install after reading the manual.

One concern I had. (Warn 9.5TI) I dis-engaged the clutch so it would be in free spool and it seems to still be locked up. The winch is sitting in my living room and has no power source. I am hoping and assuming that once I hook it up to the jeeps battery and gets some juice the clutch will dis-engage so I can pull the wire.... Any Comments???? I also did this last night at midnight so maybe I missed something.

[Old Fart]

????????

Power shouldn't affect the clutch, unless that warn is drastically different from any other I've had.

[TJSUPE]

Well, I hope I hope I just missed something, Hopefully...... I dont want to send it back and wait for a new one.......Or maybe they can walk me through fising it over the phone.


UPDATE: Everything is working fine.

[mrblaine]

for synth winch rope call John at winchline.com. tell him you love Iceland. tell him blue rubicons rock. tell him your from MJR... you might get a good deal.

Jon and Thor Jonsson, they're from Iceland, you know.

Supe, wait a bit until Jon gets the combo line up on the site with the Safety Thimble installed. Then call me with money in hand. You know the drill.

btw, it was a pleasure having you over for the Matt thing. I'm figuring next time to make about 3 times as much salsa, 5 times as much guacamole and just have a diy taco bar.

[TJSUPE]

Jon and Thor Jonsson, they're from Iceland, you know.

Supe, wait a bit until Jon gets the combo line up on the site with the Safety Thimble installed. Then call me with money in hand. You know the drill.

btw, it was a pleasure having you over for the Matt thing. I'm figuring next time to make about 3 times as much salsa, 5 times as much guacamole and just have a diy taco bar.

Thanks for the info, Blaine. And, yes I do know the drill

The salsa was delicious. With the Salsa being so good, I know I missed out on the food. next time...

I installed the winch yesterday. No problems at all. Very happy with it. Cant wait to actually use it. I will post some pics probably tonight.

[blackZZR]

maybe a bit late, but I have to go with The fart man about the connection
first the wire end would have to be alful clean for the solder to work properly, the wire would have to be heated alful hot to get a good joint, and soildering a wire of that size takes special training
the press connector, which by the way they now have hand held hydraulic presses for that, would have a antioxident grease in it and be pressed with enuff preasure to insure a great connetion
I see a lot of equiptment failure that was caused by poor connections, and the bigger the wire the easier it is to get a poor connection
go with a press, overall you will be happier a few years down the road

[cjdirtbiker]

Soldering vs. Crimping, internet research

I thought I would dig a little deeper into this subject. It appears that a good pressed fitting is better than a poor solder fitting and vice versa. There are proponents for both. However in the aerospace field it appears that crimping is the preferred method. It also appears that soldering has been used for many, many years, also with good success.

In the end I think I will test the security of my cables and if they are indeed weak I will source a crimping tool or buy custom made cables.

If anyone is interested, here's a plethora of information and opinion links:

Soldered Battery Cables
http://www.ih8mud.com/tech/battcable.php


Crimped Terminals:
posted 10-11-2005 01:21 PM ET (US)

A quote from the Ancor website, tech section:
www.ancorproducts.com/

"Do you recommend soldering or crimping terminals?
ANCOR recommends crimping vs. soldering. Per ABYC standards (E-11.16.3.7), “Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit”. Further, crimping provides a solid mechanical connection resistant to “cold joints”, breaking under fatigue and removes strain when using ANCOR double crimp nylon connectors."
The terminals are made to be attached to the wire by mechanical means. If you are using tinned marine cable, and the proper terminal end and crimper, there is no need to solder the connection.
Advise to crimp terminals:
http://www.mrsharkey.com/busbarn/electrics/chapt11.htm


A terminal and cable supply company that ONLY uses crimped cable ends:
http://www.thesolar.biz/Quick_Cable_Battery_cable.htm


Carcraft electrical: soldering vs. crimping battery terminals:
http://carcraft.com/howto/116_0507_t...ctrical_fixes/


Custom made battery cables, crimped lugs, prices seem pretty reasonable:
http://www.custombatterycables.com/2-0_cables.htm


Technical wiring, crimping vs. soldering:
http://www.tycoelectronics.com/prodnews.asp?ID=443

Marine cabling, soldering. Comment on OMC recommending crimping of terminal ends:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...&start=0&num=3

Experimental aircraft construction discussion, crimping vs. soldering wire lugs:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...&start=1&num=3

Another marine construction discussion. Crimping wins:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...&start=2&num=3

RV forum, discussion on making up battery cables, crimping vs. soldering:
http://www.rv.net/forums/index.cfm/f...g/16479399.cfm

Marine cable dealer of ‘soldered’ lug cables for marine applications:
http://www.pyacht.net/cgi-local/Soft....htm?E+scstore

4x4 article on setting up dual batteries with soldered cable lugs:
http://www.off-road.com/chevy/reviews/hellroaring/

4x4 article on making battery cables with soldered lugs:
http://www.off-road.com/jeep/cheroke...ugh/projte.htm

Another jeep winch install using soldered cable lugs on welding cable. I guess this is pretty common:
http://www.jedi.com/obiwan/jeep/winch.html

John Wiles National Electrical Code article on fine strand wire and mechanical (screw-type) terminals:
http://www.nmsu.edu/Research/tdi/pub...EI-1to2-05.pdf

Caltrans electrical wiring rules; crimping preferred over soldering:
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/eqsc/Qualit...lectric-02.htm

Alternative energy discussion of soldered vs. crimped wire lugs:
http://forum.altenergystore.com/foru...nergy/616.html

Renewable energy sources, soldering is better than crimping:
http://www.purepowersolutions.com/infoBatts.htm

[mrblaine]

I thought I would dig a little deeper into this subject. It appears that a good pressed fitting is better than a poor solder fitting and vice versa. There are proponents for both. However in the aerospace field it appears that crimping is the preferred method. It also appears that soldering has been used for many, many years, also with good success.

In the end I think I will test the security of my cables and if they are indeed weak I will source a crimping tool or buy custom made cables.

If anyone is interested, here's a plethora of information and opinion links:

Soldered Battery Cables
http://www.ih8mud.com/tech/battcable.php


Crimped Terminals:
posted 10-11-2005 01:21 PM ET (US)

A quote from the Ancor website, tech section:
www.ancorproducts.com/

"Do you recommend soldering or crimping terminals?
ANCOR recommends crimping vs. soldering. Per ABYC standards (E-11.16.3.7), “Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit”. Further, crimping provides a solid mechanical connection resistant to “cold joints”, breaking under fatigue and removes strain when using ANCOR double crimp nylon connectors."
The terminals are made to be attached to the wire by mechanical means. If you are using tinned marine cable, and the proper terminal end and crimper, there is no need to solder the connection.
Advise to crimp terminals:
http://www.mrsharkey.com/busbarn/electrics/chapt11.htm


A terminal and cable supply company that ONLY uses crimped cable ends:
http://www.thesolar.biz/Quick_Cable_Battery_cable.htm


Carcraft electrical: soldering vs. crimping battery terminals:
http://carcraft.com/howto/116_0507_t...ctrical_fixes/


Custom made battery cables, crimped lugs, prices seem pretty reasonable:
http://www.custombatterycables.com/2-0_cables.htm


Technical wiring, crimping vs. soldering:
http://www.tycoelectronics.com/prodnews.asp?ID=443

Marine cabling, soldering. Comment on OMC recommending crimping of terminal ends:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...&start=0&num=3

Experimental aircraft construction discussion, crimping vs. soldering wire lugs:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...&start=1&num=3

Another marine construction discussion. Crimping wins:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...&start=2&num=3

RV forum, discussion on making up battery cables, crimping vs. soldering:
http://www.rv.net/forums/index.cfm/f...g/16479399.cfm

Marine cable dealer of ‘soldered’ lug cables for marine applications:
http://www.pyacht.net/cgi-local/Soft....htm?E+scstore

4x4 article on setting up dual batteries with soldered cable lugs:
http://www.off-road.com/chevy/reviews/hellroaring/

4x4 article on making battery cables with soldered lugs:
http://www.off-road.com/jeep/cheroke...ugh/projte.htm

Another jeep winch install using soldered cable lugs on welding cable. I guess this is pretty common:
http://www.jedi.com/obiwan/jeep/winch.html

John Wiles National Electrical Code article on fine strand wire and mechanical (screw-type) terminals:
http://www.nmsu.edu/Research/tdi/pub...EI-1to2-05.pdf

Caltrans electrical wiring rules; crimping preferred over soldering:
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/eqsc/Qualit...lectric-02.htm

Alternative energy discussion of soldered vs. crimped wire lugs:
http://forum.altenergystore.com/foru...nergy/616.html

Renewable energy sources, soldering is better than crimping:
http://www.purepowersolutions.com/infoBatts.htm

There's more than a couple of us that know that crimping is preferred as the better connection. Unfortunately as you dig into it, you find that the tools used for acceptable crimps are not readily available, nor will the average user spend the money to buy a good tool when the bad tool is 2 bucks at harbor freight. But, the same can be said for soldered connections as well. Most DIYers don't have the skills or equipment to do a good soldered connection.

There was or still is a company in San Clemente many years ago that made very high end audio cables for home stereo. They had a nice page on their website that was an education in crimping over soldering for the long grain pure copper and pure silver speaker cables.

In it they explained that a connection that deformed the parent metal to the point of providing an oxygen free connection was superior in transmitting current.

I also had the opportunity to work with Otto who was the head electrical engineer at an aircraft company in Texas at one time and he taught us that no soldered connections were allowed in the aircraft they produced. Only crimped and only with good crimpers.

[Old Fart]

As I've indicated before (on this, and many other forums ), I have yet to find an _Industrial_ situation that allows or uses anything but crimped connections. I can tell you from personal experience (25+ years as a specifying engineer) that the Telecom, Data Center and Critical Power industries wouldn't even consider it - ever.

BTW - if you're in SoCal, I have a crimp tool I don't mind loaning out on occasion.