D30 vs. D44

[sarah]

Ok, I have a line on two D44 axles, a front and a rear. I'm trying to figure out what the heck I want to do.... here is the dilemma:

I already have the Warn hub conversion on my D30, so I could put some beefy Warn or Moser axles in it to make it almost as stout as the stock D44. This would cost ~$700-850, depending on the ujoints I choose. Does anybody know for sure if this would be as strong as (or stronger) than the stock D44? I guess I hate to spend all that money on the D30 unless it is actually stronger than the D44. I know that the D44 shares the same ball joints as the D30, so there is no distinct advantage for the 44 there. I think the knuckles are a bit different. Anybody know the difference between the D30 and D44 spindles? I think that the bolt pattern is the same, but I'm not sure. I could always use my Warn hubs on the D44 if the spindles are the same. I guess the main advantage of the 44 over the 30 is the tube diameter, right? So the axle should be stiffer.

The other thing is the axles are both set up for spring over, but that's easy enough to change back. I guess I hate to do all this work for what amounts to a not much stronger axle. I think we will probably slap the rear 44 under Sarah's TJ if I decide to get them. Then we can stop Chris having to tell us to buy spare axles...lol. Then maybe she'll have some leaf springs too ...

Looking for opinions...

:shades:

[Dukes69]

Hey Rick!!! Your blowing my mind!!! I was reading this thinking " why in the hell does Sarah need a Warn kit and a front D44 and all that jazz?!?" but then I realized that you are talking about your CJ.

Scary stuff man!

[Guest]

scared me too !

Although I would love to have a tj with leaf springs !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[goodtimes]

I have no personal experience with dana 30's (mine came with that half breed dana44 up front), but I have heard plenty of stories about people blowing up the R&P on the dana 30's. In fact, I hear about blown diffs as much as I hear about broken shafts on the 30's.

I know this guy is running d44's (F & R) with 38's, and has had very good luck with them (although he is running dutchman alloy shafts).



I don't think I would try that with a dana 30......but (there is always a "but" isnt there?), I know of people who run locked dana 30's with 35" tires and have had no problems.

[YJWOLF]

The problem with upgrading the D30 is that all those new shafts and U-joints makes the R&P the weak link. IMO it easier to change out a U-Joint than a R&P, and afterall those new parts, its still a D30. The difference between 30 and 44 is R&P size after shaft upgrades. You can do all those things to a D44 too, and now rival a 9" or 60 strength(not really but you get the idea.). To be safe, if you're running less then 35"s use the 30, and if more than 44. But if you beat the hell outta a 30 with 35"s its gonna break. Yes ive seen people run 38"s on a 30 and survive. And what 44 front has a 5x4.5 bolt pattern, or when you did the hub conversion did you get the 5x5.5 one? Funny thing is Warn;s own site says the 5x4.5 is for tires 32" and smaller. So in conclusion use the 44 and be safe.

[YJWOLF]

And Kilby over at Kilby enterprises runs his TJ-7 SUA rear and coiled front. I think he used 6" Alcan springs or something like that. Said it felt a lot better and more stable then the coils did.

[Trailbst]

YJWolf, you missed something at the top of the post. It's not Sarah asking the question. It's Rick, using Sarah's screenname. Rick is the proud owner of a CJ-7, and thus doesn't have to worry about the 5 on 4.5

[sarah]

Yes...I'm a post moron. I often fail to check to see who is logged in before I post, since Sarah and I are using the same computer a lot of the time. Note, I am posting as Sarah now...just for tonight (again).

Update: The axles I am looking at are off of a Scout, so they are 60" from wheel mounting surface to WMS, which is 2" wider than my widetrack ('86) CJ-7. That is a minor detail, I would actually not have a problem at all with putting my rear D44 on Sarah's TJ (same width, I think), and putting both of the Scout axles on my CJ.... The problem comes with the mounting position of the springs on a Scout axle. The distance between Scout D44 spring pads is 31", while a CJ measures 27 1/2". This would not be a problem if the brain children engineers that originally designed the Dana axle for the Scout hadn't placed the passenger side spring pad directly next to (basically in) the differential housing. So the way to make it all right would be to either cut the axle down 4" to make it narrow enough to get the spring pads close enough together or weld brackets/front cross member that is wider than the frame to mount the shackle hangers to. Either way sucks. Making the axle narrow means that it would be 2" narrower than my rear axle (I really don't like this idea).

See pic below for spring pad enlightenment and Dana engineering hatred:


Rick :shades:

[seapahn]

Nice tires! They almost match

[Trailbst]

Rick, a friend of mine in Colorado, went to wider than stock axles on his Jeep. He moved all of the front spring hangers outboard of the frame rails, gussetted them, and then re-inforced them to the opposite frame rail. Looked good, worked awesome, gave him a lot of width which equals and a lot of side-side stability on the trail. Don't be afraid to do it, you know you want to. Anyhoo, he moved the hangers so that he could use the original spring pad location on the axle, and didn't have to shorten them. Thus, it was more cost effective.

I at one point in my Jeeps life, had a set of Wagoneer 44's sitting in the yard. I was planning on doing the same as my friend Darren did. Move the spring hangers. I joined the Navy and sold the axles.

There are not many downfalls that I can see to doing this. Other than having to buy some really wide fender flares. Driveline angles will be fine, steering would just be longer tie rods.

DO IT Dude.

[Guest]

Poison spider has a bolt /weldon kit for doing this . pretty nice set up and it allows for spring adjustments . I have given this a thought , but the problem here lies in the location of the axle as far as front and rear goes . most people do the shackle reversal at this time which is an awesome improvement to do . the only problem is the tires push backwards and usually make contact with the fender rears . Something to think about . If you move the box forward you have to deal a plethera of steering geometry problems . Although a little extra wheelbase never hurt anybody . Just plan this thing out from the get go .

JIM :{>

[rick]

Yah Seapahn, those are some mini me's on that jeep... it's a buddy's jeep, so I can't take credit for the tire size selection! You can see the outboard mounted spring hangers, as well as the high clearance steering setup. Nice.

Good point Jim, I was thinking about doing the shackle reversal at the same_ time. That's what Aaron, the dude with the Commando on MJR, did with his. That's a very important point, the axle moves backward instead of forward when the spring lengthens out under flex. Most of the shackle reversal kits that first came out did not account for this. This is not that big a deal if you are making custom mounts anyhow, like you say - just have to plan it out so the front spring hanger is forward a bit more than stock. I saw that poison spyder kit, looks like it might work pretty nice. At least it would save mucho time in making all of the bracketry. The axles I'm looking at are already corrected for castor and pinion angle for this setup, so it would work sw33t without much screwing around.

The other option is to do Alcan springs, where they will bend them to the lift you want and let you specify where you want the axle to mount along the length of the spring. This would eliminate the need to hang the front spring mounts way out at the very front of the axle. I have wondered (mostly while Aaron was building his, not much since), how strong the frame is with the forward mounted spring hangers way up there. I guess it has worked ok for Aaron tho, and he has abused that thing quite a bit with no frame issues as far as I know. Of course, with the kit this isn't even an issue because they move the front spring hanger forward an inch.

Thanks to all for the input, this is turning out to be a nice thread! Now I just have to decide what to do....lol

:shades:

[Guest]

Alcan springs are nice and pricey ! For your money I would definately go with a yj spring setup ( cheaper , readily available , And you can have a spring shopp repunch the pincenter hole wherever you want it to locate )

[NAILER341]

here are some numbers that i found...
The Warn axles (bottom) are made from 4340 nickle-chromium-molybdenum alloy steel, have a hardened shaft and yoke, can accept full-circle clips for the U-joints, and are rated at 60,000 lb/in. For comparison, the stockers are 1040 carbon steel rated at 40,000 lb/in; only the shaft is hardened, and they are machined only for stock C-clips. Additionally, as this shot shows, the Warn shafts are larger in diameter before necking down and have a longer spline engagement.
those stock axle numbers are from a tj, which has stronger shafts than a stock cj.
i havent found numbers for a stock 44 yet, but i'm looking. from what i have heard though... the 30 with the warn conversion running the 760 joint is stronger than a stock 44 axle....

[sarah]

But the ring and pinion...still a 30 like goodtimes said.