NV4500 Transplant

[aw12345]

Just make sure the input shaft is centered in the bellhousing or you will be replacing quite a few clutch disks. That is the biggest challenge to get the trans centered right. If you got that taken care of, you should have no problems

[inVERt'D]

Just make sure the input shaft is centered in the bellhousing or you will be replacing quite a few clutch disks. That is the biggest challenge to get the trans centered right. If you got that taken care of, you should have no problems

Thank you Art. I wasn't as concerned about clutch discs as I was the transmission itself, but you're right, the whole crux of this thing depends upon the input shaft being properly lined up. I obsessed on this thing for more weeks than I want to admit to 1) find a way to get it right, and 2) execute the same properly and accurately. At this point, I'm confident enough to put my transmission on the line and run it.

[aw12345]

The trans input shaft seems less of a problem than the center of the clutch discs. Seems like the discs fail first when the trans is even a little of center.
Most factory manuals call for something under 0.003" of run out

[inVERt'D]

The trans input shaft seems less of a problem than the center of the clutch discs. Seems like the discs fail first when the trans is even a little of center.
Most factory manuals call for something under 0.003" of run out

You know I have a factory repair manual, and I can't find it right now. There being different measurements of runout, do you mean the runout from rotational center (eccentricity), or runout as a linear measurement of angular alignment (how cockeyed is it)? As far as eccentricity, I don't believe either the plastic clutch alignment tools I've been using for over 20 years or the hollow, bolt-thru alignment dowels used by Jeep to align the bellhousing to the engine block will provide tolerances that close. Even the engine block itself could easily get out of those tolerances. In fact, Lakewood sells offset alignment dowels to index bellhousings. With regard to angular alignment/ cockeyedness, I'm good there.

Now if my clutch wears out prematurely, I'll be sure and post up right here .

[Guest]

You know I have a factory repair manual, and I can't find it right now. There being different measurements of runout, do you mean the runout from rotational center (eccentricity), or runout as a linear measurement of angular alignment (how cockeyed is it)? As far as eccentricity, I don't believe either the plastic clutch alignment tools I've been using for over 20 years or the hollow, bolt-thru alignment dowels used by Jeep to align the bellhousing to the engine block will provide tolerances that close. Even the engine block itself could easily get out of those tolerances. In fact, Lakewood sells offset alignment dowels to index bellhousings. With regard to angular alignment/ cockeyedness, I'm good there.

Now if my clutch wears out prematurely, I'll be sure and post up right here .

One of the dogs had it. Might want to start there.

You need to get that going so we can get it stuck! :gun:

[inVERt'D]

Fixing to bolt the 4500 up, but first I'm gonna replace the rear main seal since it seems to be leaking.

Problem with the clutch alignment tool I ordered from Summit--it's wrong. Turns out Centerforce (and others) are under the false impression that Dodge/ Jeep and GM 1-1/8", 10-spline input shafts are the same for purposes of clutch alignment. Well, they're wrong--Dodge and Jeep have a .75" pilot spud diameter, and GM's is about .6. So they sell their 53010 GM 10-spline clutch alignment tool for Dodge and Jeep applications as well. I spoke with a gentleman at Centerforce yesterday afternoon and he asked that I send him an email explaining the problem. Will do tomorrow.

Since I don't have any confidence that any given clutch alignment tool is going to have the correct pilot diameter, I'm not going to buy another. Instead I'm going to use my 3550 to line up the clutch--it's less than half the weight of the 4500 and without the bellhousing installed it will make a fine, if slightly awkward alignment tool. Heck, that was the way to do it before the cheapie alignment tools came out.

Here are the two trannies side by side. NV3550 on left, NV4500 on right.

Twins


Here's a pic of the 4500 and bellhousing within 1/4"-1/2" of the engine block. Clocking isn't quite right, but it was close enough to check the hole. If I need more clearance for the tranny tailhousing and Atlas, I'll cut that tub reinforcement aft of the tranny and refab it.



Here's a flange that joins the firewall to the tub floor. It hangs down about an inch. My plasma cutter will make quick work of it and I'll weld the tub and firewall back together without that stupidness hanging down. It's kinda hard to see, but it's visible above the top of the bellhousing.



Here's the 4500 with the tail angled down a more than it would be (as is the engine). I can easily envision this working with the stock crossmember, but that crossmember is one of my least favorite things about my Jeep. I really want it as flat as possible.

Despite all the posts and articles I've read, I had to see it all for myself, and I'm prepared to eat crow (brokenujoint). I'm thinking a motor mount lift of 1.5" or so will be necessary to get it where I want it. Money is extremely tight, so I'll be making the spacers myself. I really hate to raise the engine, because it has such an effect on the center of gravity. Since I'm committed to this tranny, however, I'm going to have to compromise COG a little to get the ground clearance I want. If I have to do a 1" body lift, I will, grudgingly. I might as well resign myself to full-width Dana 60s, another 9" of stretch and hydraulic steering just so this swap works and makes sense.



Oh, different topic, but notice that dented in part of the tub around that large nut. That nut and bolt used to secure my Poison Spyder Full Cage A Column stanchions to the floor of the tub. The dent happened when I rolled a little more than a year ago. Well, the tub is doubled up there, so I'll be welding a 3/16" plate to it and tying it in to the frame. I'll also bridge the gap between it and the 3/16" floorplate on the inside with some tubing. It will be like another body mount, bushing and all, but stronger.

Well, that's it for now, folks.

[inVERt'D]

One of the dogs had it. Might want to start there.

Hadn't thought of the dog angle. Now that you mention it, sometimes the truth is just too embarrassing.[/quote]

You need to get that going so we can get it stuck! :gun:

Payback, huh? Well it might be a little harder to get stuck than Murphy seeing as I actually have a rear drive shaft.

[aw12345]

If the trans runs of center it trashes the clutch center and rips it out. to get it parallel with the engine is the easy part bolt it to a flat plate and you are good.
Most dowels on belhousings and the round front bearing retainers are a pretty tight fit well within a few thousands of tolerance. Other than that pretty good job so far. I am sure the big 5 speed boat anchor will help recenter the center of gravity

[inVERt'D]

If the trans runs of center it trashes the clutch center and rips it out. to get it parallel with the engine is the easy part bolt it to a flat plate and you are good. Most dowels on belhousings and the round front bearing retainers are a pretty tight fit well within a few thousands of tolerance.

You are persistent. I'm not going to get into exactly how I made the adapter plate at this time, but let's just say that there is no way it could be more than .001 or .002 off-center based on the two trannies I have to verify it. Things are tight and accurate.

As far as the accuracy of the block-to-bellhousing dowels, from what I've read they generally start out within .001" tolerances or so. According to the same sources, however, they cannot be relied upon to stay that way because of the nature of engine block castings in general. The bellhousing will help keep them the same distance apart, but their relation to the center of the input shaft can change. If maintaining that .003" degree of accuracy were that critical for production vehicles and non-race applications, bellhousing reindexing would be as routine as replacing the throwout bearing. As it is, most of us outside the racing world never give this a second thought, am I right?

Other than that pretty good job so far. I am sure the big 5 speed boat anchor will help recenter the center of gravity

Yes, it is a fat pig, but I object to the term "boat anchor." That implies something that is otherwise useless because of its weight. I didn't paint it pretty silver just to make it a boat anchor. I have more suitable plans for it in the unlikely event that it should break: nothing says he-man like a 200lb paperweight.

Someone trying to build a light Jeep would probably be better off staying with the 3550 and dropping in an Atlas 4-spd. I'm still amazed I have any kind of Atlas at all, let alone a shiny new one (should be here any day). Who knows, maybe someday an LS/ Vortec V-8 will fall into my lap and I'll get to drop some of that weight in exchange for a whole lot more power.

[Guest]

Hadn't thought of the dog angle. Now that you mention it, sometimes the truth is just too embarrassing.



Payback, huh? Well it might be a little harder to get stuck than Murphy seeing as I actually have a rear drive shaft.

Yep AND yep!

[Double AA]

I don't know the weight difference between the 3550
and the 4500 is, or the 4500 and an auto, but I know the 4500 is up to anything you could through at it. Big horsepower, big tires, big rocks or towing a house, its plenty beefy.

[inVERt'D]

Yep AND yep!

You know, in my 1 am stupor I thought you were talking about my dog eating my clutch disc--which I figured was as good a cover as anything else. Well, Buddy the Bookeater is apparently long gone, but those other four bastards...you just never know. Come to think of it, the last time I saw it you were here! Ok Ron, $20 for the manual, no questions asked. It's 2000 TJ-specific and it barely applies to my Jeep anymore--it would be almost useless to you.

I don't know the weight difference between the 3550
and the 4500 is, or the 4500 and an auto, but I know the 4500 is up to anything you could through at it. Big horsepower, big tires, big rocks or towing a house, its plenty beefy.

The 3550 weighs about 90 lbs dry and the 4500 about 190 dry. The 4500 also holds about twice as much fluid. That beef you're talking about, the passable granny 1st (mine, like most, is 5.61), full synchronization in all 6, and a touch of compulsiveness are what got me to pull the trigger on that fateful evening about a year ago. I have second-guessed myself numerous times, but I guess I like tweaking on my Jeep almost as much as wheeling it. BTW, are you running an LS, or an older smallblock? I watched some of your Hammers videos--that thing sounds great--what a beast!

[Guest]

[QUOTE=inVERt'D;157948]You know, in my 1 am stupor I thought you were talking about my dog eating my clutch disc--which I figured was as good a cover as anything else. Well, Buddy the Bookeater is apparently long gone, but those other four bastards...you just never know. Come to think of it, the last time I saw it you were here! Ok Ron, $20 for the manual, no questions asked. It's 2000 TJ-specific and it barely applies to my Jeep anymore--it would be almost useless to you.


Laughing!!!

EDIT: For some SERIOUS laughs, I actually went to the jeep and checked. I thought maybe since it was so late maybe I did grab it by mistake. Nope. Sorry.

[inVERt'D]

Thanks for checking, Ron. For a minute I was wondering if I'd left it in your Jeep. Found it in a box of parts under some other crap.

[inVERt'D]

Well, the weather and some other things have slowed me down quite a bit, but I've made progress. Got that firewall to tranny tunnel lip cut off, rewelded, primed, and painted.

Friday I reinstalled the flywheel and clutch cover with the new disc. Then I took my tranny and bellhousing apart, replaced all the nuts holding the bellhousing to the adapter with nylock nuts, applied red thread locker, and torqued them down. Then I bolted the adapter to the tranny using thread locker and torqued those bolts down--ready for the big day!

Today was that day. The ground my Jeep is on is not at all level--a good 1:20 slope there. Never noticed it much until I tried to lift the Jeep over the 4500 and then tried to jockey a 200lb tranny around on a floor jack--got tippy and hairy. So I tried a different tack. Let the redneck cracks commence.



Laugh all you want, but it worked. With it hanging from the hoist, I was able to get underneath the tranny and wrassle it with all fours, which is what it took (the hoist could not be moved forward any further, so I had to push against the tension of the chain). Lying cradled between the legs of the hoist with the cardboard behind my back, I was quite comfy. Being on the short/ stocky side can have its advantages. I struggled with it for awhile until I realized that the catalytic converter was seriously getting in the way. Out came the torch again, and out came the cat and muffler (got a new Magnaflow to install anyway).



Hey, I've slept in less comfortable places than that. If you're wondering about that fat tranny gut hanging out there, I put a 1 x 2 against the frame rails for reference. The belly of the tranny hung down even with the width of the 1 x 2 (1-1/2"). Not yet sure how much I can raise the front of the tranny--I'll have to play with it more tomorrow.

Here's a pick of the the tranny from above. I've still got the hoist supporting it, but it's actually bolted up flush to the engine block. As you can see (or maybe can't see), the clocking is very slight. Talk about tight fits, I had to remove the cigarette lighter/ switch panel to give the hoist just barely enough room. Conveniently, the other stuff had already been removed.



I'll probably bolt up the new t-case tomorrow.