California Open Carry Law

[sarah]

Have you guys seen any of this San Francisco action!? I had no idea until recently that it is legal to open carry (not concealed, not loaded, not within 1k' of a school) in California. Seems like there are more people exercising this right and getting some press for it too...

http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/Fire...-82852497.html

http://www.examiner.com/x-17142-SF-H...-unloaded-guns

GOOD STUFF!

Rules behind the movement

Individuals have the right to carry unloaded firearms that are in plain view and not concealed, but it’s within a law enforcement officer’s right to inspect any weapon that is carried openly in public, according to the San Mateo County Sheriff’s Office.

Penal Code Section 12025 makes it unlawful to carry a concealed firearm when person does any of the following: carries concealed pistol, revolver or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person. Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section.

Penal Code Section 12031 makes it unlawful to carry a loaded firearm while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or any public place or street in a prohibited area in an unincorporated territory.

A firearm shall be considered loaded when an unexpended cartridge or shell is in or attached to the firearm. A muzzleloader firearm shall be considered loaded when it is capped or primed and has a shot in the barrel.

Note: Officers are allowed to examine any firearm carried by anyone in a public setting. Refusal constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of this code. It’s also illegal to possess a firearm — loaded, unloaded, concealed, not concealed — within 1,000 feet of any school, except when the firearm is being transported.

Source: San Mateo County Sheriff’s Office

[inVERt'D]

Frankly, I wouldn't want to carry an unloaded firearm on me. It is worse than no firearm at all, both in terms of putting you in jeopardy with law enforcement/ prosecution should you actually be involved in an incident, and as a personal safety hazard. The only practical purpose such a law has is to carry a firearm to a vehicle and back.

[OU812]

I read a write up on this a while back. Basically what I read was that yes it is legal. However, some police officers will argue that a loaded clip even if carried separately constitutes a loaded gun because the clip is part of the gun. Although this seems like a stretch it is enough to get arrested and harassed even if it isn't enough to be convicted of a crime. I think that open carry is a great thing for our state. It shows the fearful uneducated masses that criminals and police officers are not the only people who have guns.

[Kodiak Spirit]

The key to carry for an auto pistol is to have an empty magazine inserted into the pistol, so the firearm is not loaded, but is whole, with the empty mag. you can then carry as many loaded mags as you want, so long as they are not in the pistol, it's not loaded. You are right to think that if you have an empty mag well and a loaded mag they will say that the loaded mag is a part of that pistol and therefore your hit.

[Deamer]

Frankly, I wouldn't want to carry an unloaded firearm on me. It is worse than no firearm at all, both in terms of putting you in jeopardy with law enforcement/ prosecution should you actually be involved in an incident, and as a personal safety hazard. The only practical purpose such a law has is to carry a firearm to a vehicle and back.

So if a bank/store robber comes storming out into the sidewalk in front of you shooting people as he tries to get away, you would rather be defenseless instead of being able to try to protect yourself?


I would prefer concealed carry but if this is the only option available I would consider doing it. With practice you could draw from holster, drop empty magazine and have the loaded mag inserted in seconds.

Ya, you will probably have interaction with uninformed LE but as long as you follow the law you should be good. LE agencies are getting the word out that it is legal to do.

As far as an "incident", the only time the gun should leave the holster is while being inspected by LE or if someone is threatening your life with deadly force.

As far as a personal safety hazard, can you give an example? I don't see where an unloaded gun can hurt you unless you drop it on your toe.



Calguns lawyers are suggesting not to exercise unloaded open carry right now because of the current cases in the courts right now dealing with the 2nd amendment and concealed carry. Can't remember the specifics but depending on the outcome of these cases we could either have "shall issue" concealed carry or loaded open carry.

Loaded open carry was legal in CA until 1967 when they passed the Mulford Act to stop the Black Panthers from doing armed patrols in areas where minorities were unfairly targeted by police. The Panthers would listen to the police scanners and respond to incident in the bad areas and inform the suspect of their rights and try to prevent the police from beating the suspect up.

[inVERt'D]

So if a bank/store robber comes storming out into the sidewalk in front of you shooting people as he tries to get away, you would rather be defenseless instead of being able to try to protect yourself?

No, geesh, you're right, I didn't think about that. I would much rather stumble into a scenario like that with an unloaded gun on my hip; preferably a big, heavy Desert Eagle, 'cause if I'm real, real lucky and he doesn't plug me 5 times before I can fumble it off my hip, I might be able to throw it at him and knock him off his feet. Maybe I should carry two just in case he's not alone.

I'm sorry, but you reveal a dangerous naivete both regarding situations in which you might actually need a firearm, and of the current law enforcement and the current legal situation in the U.S. in general and California in particular.

I would prefer concealed carry but if this is the only option available I would consider doing it. With practice you could draw from holster, drop empty magazine and have the loaded mag inserted in seconds.

I think you should learn all you can. On the way to becoming a firearms defense expert, you will learn what every other firearms defense expert knows: carrying a visible, unloaded gun is more dangerous than carrying no gun at all.

Ya, you will probably have interaction with uninformed LE but as long as you follow the law you should be good. LE agencies are getting the word out that it is legal to do.

I don't know where to start with this one. Nowadays, if law enforcement rolls up on a scene where shots have been fired and sees you holding a gun, good luck.

Last time I checked, it was even illegal to carry a firearm and ammo together in your car in California. One of the two would have to be, say. in the trunk, and the other would have to be somewhere other than in the trunk. I remember about '99 or so some guy was selling lock boxes that he hoped would meet the legal requirement. One locked compartment for your weapon, the other for your ammo. I think he was having a hard time finding guinea pigs. Before you do it, you'd better make damn sure that it's legal to do in the eyes of the current attorney general, the courts, etc. Otherwise, you could end up as a "bad guy,"-- a felon forbidden access to firearms.

In California, even displaying or "brandishing" a firearm on your own property will get you arrested. I've known someone who was arrested for just that. And yes, they had a good reason, but that doesn't necessarily matter.

There are people doing life in prison right now who claim they were only defending their homes and families. Some of them might be telling the truth. Without a doubt, even in your own home, shooting someone in self defense will likely put you on the defense before law enforcement.

As far as an "incident", the only time the gun should leave the holster is while being inspected by LE or if someone is threatening your life with deadly force.

If someone is threatening your life with deadly force, you'd be better off with a knife or a baseball bat than an unloaded gun. You'd be better off running away for that matter.

If you come face to face with someone who is truly dangerous, going for that unloaded gun may be the last thing you ever do. Chances are they will take it from you, breaking your hand in the process. It will likely get worse from there. If they have a knife, you'll be lucky to have it out of the holster before they gut you and have you bleeding from your knees to your eyeballs. As a matter of fact in any distance within 20 feet or so, a knife expert will have an advantage against most trained people with a loaded weapon on their hip. Cops have been killed like that. Soldiers have been killed while firing on knife-wielding attackers. Happened a lot in the Philippines during the Spanish-American War.

As far as a personal safety hazard, can you give an example? I don't see where an unloaded gun can hurt you unless you drop it on your toe.

If I give you an example, you'd have to derive the principle from it. I'd rather give you the principle and let you derive examples from it:

The same kind of safety hazard as having a battleship mouth and a rowboat ass. You draw attention to yourself as a threat and therefor a high-priority target, without having an equal ability to respond. You're really rolling the dice hoping that any baddies you come across will be incompetent, or that you'll just be lucky. I guarantee any non-retarded baddy with a gun is going to be carrying it loaded and concealed. While you're carrying it unloaded and unconcealed. Tell me who has the advantage here? Who's going to get the drop on whom? Same story if he has a knife, except he's even more likely to feel compelled to use it.

I think everyone more or less should be able to carry loaded, concealed or open. I know the Founders believed in that, although I wonder if they could see us now, would dare put a free republic into our hands?

[nwoods]

...carrying a visible, unloaded gun is more dangerous than carrying no gun at all.

Yeap. Just ask the Marines who served in Beirut.

[Kodiak Spirit]

The purpose of open unloaded carry is not for protection or police action, it is to make a public point about gun rights and gun ownership. I do agree that if you are daft enough to be unloaded open carry with a Desert Eagle and think your going to go all 'John Wayne' on somebody your a bit off.

To make a point about personal defense with a handgun, concealed loaded or not, unless it is drawn already the time to employ it is not at the point of surprise. The concealed carrier has that advantage to wait until the time is right to employ the weapon, if at all. The open carry is at a dis-advantage here, he must conceal that which was not concealed to wait for the time to be right. There is a deterrent angle working for the open carry chap though, a fair amount of would be felons won't want to risk the business of dealing with somebody else having a gun in the room. The reason they are there is to take advantage of a situation and once they lose any advantage, they usually just do the crime some other time.

[OU812]

There is a deterrent angle working for the open carry chap though, a fair amount of would be felons won't want to risk the business of dealing with somebody else having a gun in the room.

This is a good point. But wouldn’t he know that your weapon is not loaded? Open carry is a great way to teach the public about legal firearm ownership. But There are some big risks involved with open carry. I commend the person who is willing to this public service knowing the risks.

[inVERt'D]

I'm all for it as a political statement. To say the least, our right to keep and bear arms has been infringed, and there is a serious chill on the exercise of what little remains of our rights.

I know a guy who went to prison in CA for having 17 tracer rounds. Long story short, he ended up doing 5 years in prison. His 5 kids really missed him. Someone in the the former Soviet Union once said "To stand for truth is nothing. For truth you must sit in jail."

Deterrent is a great reason to carry a weapon. In many cases, all someone has to do is display a gun, and would-be perps take off. It would not be my choice to point an empty weapon at someone. If baddies get used to seeing empty guns on people, some of them are likely to be bold enough, desperate enough, or just stoned enough to start grabbing said weapons.

Suppose you're right and you can carry a separate, loaded clip on you. You'd better not get caught like that in the car. You'd better not get caught like that within 1000' feet of a school or going to a number of other places, either. You're really going to have maintain a higher level of awareness and be careful about where you are, what's on your person, and what's going on around you. To support your political argument,

"It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance..." John Philpot Curran

[Deamer]

I am well aware that UOC is a political statement. We could argue scenarios all day long, some where UOC could hurt and some where it could help. You may be protecting someone elses life. I did not state that UOC was the best choice.

inVERt'D, Why did the guy have illegal tracer rounds and how did he get caught? From what I know the only reason they are illegal in CA is because they can start fires.

As far as displaying a gun in your yard the courts have ruled that if your yard is not fenced/enclosed so it prevents public access it is considered public access property when it come to gun laws.

I do carry a knife everyday but I do not see walking through town carrying a baseball bat for protection.

As far as the loaded magazines in a car, you can have a gun and loaded magazines in a locked container sitting on you lap if you want. The important part is the magazine cannot be inserted into the gun. It is legal for me to put my pistol in a locked container and throw in a tank bag or backpack on my motorcyle. I think the box you are talking about is the Titan Gun Vault. www.titangunvault.com It is even listed on the CA DOJ website as a "approved" gun storage device. The price is the limiting factor on why I don't have one yet.

[Deamer]

This is a good point. But wouldn’t he know that your weapon is not loaded? Open carry is a great way to teach the public about legal firearm ownership. But There are some big risks involved with open carry. I commend the person who is willing to this public service knowing the risks.

From some of the stories that some open carriers have posted, people assumed they were plain clothes cops. As far as the risks, thats why most UOC guys do it in groups.

[inVERt'D]

inVERt'D, Why did the guy have illegal tracer rounds and how did he get caught? From what I know the only reason they are illegal in CA is because they can start fires.

As far as their illegality, he and his family went all over the country selling stuff at gun shows, and as far as he knew, tracer rounds were legal everywhere. In fact, it is legal to have up to 10 tracer rounds in CA as collectors' items. The DA got him on a "wobbler," something that can be charged as either a misdemeanor (as in the case of the fire hazard you mentioned) or a felony. I believe the felony was "possession of a destructive device." (Last I heard there were some 60 "crimes" in California that were wobblers.) Since he had seven more rounds than the legal limit, they were threatening him with 2 years for each (IIRC). At a moment of weakness he took a plea bargain for one round. How he served 5 years on a 16-month term is a whole story of its own. Although state tried to peg him as a "militia" guy, he had no involvement, and the FBI (who, among other things had used ground penetrating radar on his property) report concluded "no evidence of illegal militia activity."

I just found an article which tells a good part of the story (but not nearly all of it):

http://70.85.195.205/news/printer-fr...TICLE_ID=13946

FWIW, the "cache" they blew up consisted of a mortar round found in several tons of scrap metal purchased at a government auction.

I do carry a knife everyday but I do not see walking through town carrying a baseball bat for protection.

Yeah, that can be kind of awkward, but so can having a gun on your hip. Just bring a glove and you'll look more natural.

I think the box you are talking about is the Titan Gun Vault. www.titangunvault.com

No, that wasn't it. It was a simple metal box intended to be carried in your vehicle that had two separate, locked compartments in it: one for your handgun, the other for your ammo.

[Matt2001TJ]

The key to carry for an auto pistol is to have an empty magazine inserted into the pistol, so the firearm is not loaded, but is whole, with the empty mag. you can then carry as many loaded mags as you want, so long as they are not in the pistol, it's not loaded. You are right to think that if you have an empty mag well and a loaded mag they will say that the loaded mag is a part of that pistol and therefore your hit.

I have been on this forum for about a year and there are some interesting stories there from some that have exercised there open carry rights as well as other interesting topics. http://www.opencarry.org/

[Kodiak Spirit]

yeah, :thumbs_up I've lurked there for quite a while, I can't join that forum though- I am trying to remember too many passwords as it is! and none of them are 'password' !