Better brakes

[SNOOPY]

Greetings I would like better brakes for my 06 Ruby Unlimited. With all the weight I've added in 4 years & those 35" tires, the brakes have really been compromised. I've upgraded the pucks front & rear but it only helped they still suffer. I thought i heard someone saying that the newer Grands have better brakes like 4 piston fronts, or maybe it was only 2, but still better one. The big question is if that true, can they be fitted to the TJ. I've been fitting crap to my '69 CJ for 40 years, so making something fit is no big deal???
Thanks Snoopy
davtel@dslextreme.com

[headhunter]

I'm not as familiar with Rubicons, but maybe upgrading the master cylinder would help.

I know a few people that are very happy with the Vanco replacement on their CJ-8s. Once they got 35s and 37s on their Scramblers it was harder to stop and this seemed to bring it back to normal. I plan to do this before I go to 35s.

I understand that a Corvette master cylinder is also a good option.

Christian

[NAILER341]

Take a look at the vanco site:
http://www.vancopbs.com/product_p/dkj1000.htm

[miguelitojeep97]

x2 my VanCo brakes work great!

[Old Fart]

X3 on Vanco. I gave away an entire milk crate full of master cylinders, boosters, "trick" brake pads, etc after I went to Hydroboost.

It doesn't stop as good as the 986 - but a close second

[SNOOPY]

Hey just wanted to say thanks on all the information about Vanco. But thats not the question, what I want to know does the Grands front brakes with duel piston fit a 98-06 Wrangler? After looking at Vanco they seem to modify the existing steering knuckle (core charge $200) to fit the new 2 piston caliper & maybe even beef it up. Thinking that the Grands have the same Knuckles as do the TJ, that maybe the grands knuckle & brake set up would fit the TJ. This is only in theory as I've not seen a grands front brakes, but it does make same kind of sanity to the question at hand~!~ Any help in that area.
Thanks again Snoopy

[Dukes69]

Hey just wanted to say thanks on all the information about Vanco. But thats not the question, what I want to know does the Grands front brakes with duel piston fit a 98-06 Wrangler? After looking at Vanco they seem to modify the existing steering knuckle (core charge $200) to fit the new 2 piston caliper & maybe even beef it up. Thinking that the Grands have the same Knuckles as do the TJ, that maybe the grands knuckle & brake set up would fit the TJ. This is only in theory as I've not seen a grands front brakes, but it does make same kind of sanity to the question at hand~!~ Any help in that area.
Thanks again Snoopy

ZJ brakes offer no upgrade, They're the same as TJ brakes. WJ brakes are an upgrade, however they require far too much work to be worth it. The easier way is Vanco's stuff.

[mrblaine]

I'm not as familiar with Rubicons, but maybe upgrading the master cylinder would help.

I know a few people that are very happy with the Vanco replacement on their CJ-8s. Once they got 35s and 37s on their Scramblers it was harder to stop and this seemed to bring it back to normal. I plan to do this before I go to 35s.

I understand that a Corvette master cylinder is also a good option.

Christian

What does swapping in a different master do for you? In order for it to be an upgrade, there has to be a benefit.

In a nutshell, there is nothing wrong with the TJ master.

Are you also aware that there is probably only a very small handful of folks capable of bolting a Corvette master up to the TJ booster and I happen to be one of them? Corvette master have a button at the of the pistons that the booster pushrod presses against. It is usually recessed into the end of the master about 1/2".

TJ masters have a tube sticking out the end of them about 3 inches. They are not compatible.

[mrblaine]

Hey just wanted to say thanks on all the information about Vanco. But thats not the question, what I want to know does the Grands front brakes with duel piston fit a 98-06 Wrangler? After looking at Vanco they seem to modify the existing steering knuckle (core charge $200) to fit the new 2 piston caliper & maybe even beef it up. Thinking that the Grands have the same Knuckles as do the TJ, that maybe the grands knuckle & brake set up would fit the TJ. This is only in theory as I've not seen a grands front brakes, but it does make same kind of sanity to the question at hand~!~ Any help in that area.
Thanks again Snoopy

As Chris said, there is no benefit to swapping on the WJ stuff over Van's stuff. Also for the most part, the swap also requires you to run 16" wheels if you want decent backspacing because of how bulky the calipers are.

When I designed and developed Van's Bigger Brake kits, it was because I grew weary of how much work the WJ stuff took and built a straight bolt on solution that accomplishes the same thing.

[headhunter]

What does swapping in a different master do for you? In order for it to be an upgrade, there has to be a benefit.

In a nutshell, there is nothing wrong with the TJ master.

Are you also aware that there is probably only a very small handful of folks capable of bolting a Corvette master up to the TJ booster and I happen to be one of them? Corvette master have a button at the of the pistons that the booster pushrod presses against. It is usually recessed into the end of the master about 1/2".

TJ masters have a tube sticking out the end of them about 3 inches. They are not compatible.

My understanding (and it may be a misunderstanding) is that a more powerful master cylinder is capable of exerting more power on the brake pads, therefore helping stop the vehicle more easily.

As I said before, I'm speaking from the point of view of people I know who have done this on a Scrambler. It may be that some of this is not the same on a TJ and that the challenge is a different one.

Apparently, you understand the TJ master to be adequate for the task at hand. So, it may be that I'm approaching this from the wrong end of the equation.

Christian

[mrblaine]

My understanding (and it may be a misunderstanding) is that a more powerful master cylinder is capable of exerting more power on the brake pads, therefore helping stop the vehicle more easily.

Master cylinders have no power, they are not rated by power and without a pushing source such as a high leverage brake pedal, vacuum booster, or hydroboost, are naught more than inert pieces of scrap metal and rubber. Masters are rated by stroke and bore size and typically the stroke is adequate across all the various models that the only real criteria we need to concern ourself with is bore size.

Generally speaking with all other things being equal, if you "upgrade" the bore size and make it larger, you will decrease line pressure to the calipers and increase pedal height and pedal input pressure to achieve the same line pressure. In short, you wind up with a very high hard pedal and no braking ability.

As I said before, I'm speaking from the point of view of people I know who have done this on a Scrambler. It may be that some of this is not the same on a TJ and that the challenge is a different one.

Brake systems all succumb to the same simple rules of hydraulics. No more, no less. It may be that the Scramblers had too small of a bore size to start, or someone swapped on larger bore calipers and didn't say anything.

Apparently, you understand the TJ master to be adequate for the task at hand. So, it may be that I'm approaching this from the wrong end of the equation.

Christian

I've taken the TJ master with a Dakota booster behind it and generated 2850 psi line pressure to the calipers. To put that in perspective, High Performance Wilwood brakes only like to see 1000-1200 psi, a high performance hydroboost puts out 2900 psi with a 1" master, and the stock booster on a TJ is capable of 15-1700 psi.

I swapped in a Durango Master with a 1 1/16" bore to drop the line pressure and improve the pedal feel and still get over 2400 psi.

[headhunter]

Master cylinders have no power, they are not rated by power and without a pushing source such as a high leverage brake pedal, vacuum booster, or hydroboost, are naught more than inert pieces of scrap metal and rubber. Masters are rated by stroke and bore size and typically the stroke is adequate across all the various models that the only real criteria we need to concern ourself with is bore size.

Generally speaking with all other things being equal, if you "upgrade" the bore size and make it larger, you will decrease line pressure to the calipers and increase pedal height and pedal input pressure to achieve the same line pressure. In short, you wind up with a very high hard pedal and no braking ability.



Brake systems all succumb to the same simple rules of hydraulics. No more, no less. It may be that the Scramblers had too small of a bore size to start, or someone swapped on larger bore calipers and didn't say anything.



I've taken the TJ master with a Dakota booster behind it and generated 2850 psi line pressure to the calipers. To put that in perspective, High Performance Wilwood brakes only like to see 1000-1200 psi, a high performance hydroboost puts out 2900 psi with a 1" master, and the stock booster on a TJ is capable of 15-1700 psi.

I swapped in a Durango Master with a 1 1/16" bore to drop the line pressure and improve the pedal feel and still get over 2400 psi.

mrblaine,

That's some great info and it's always a pleasure to learn from those who know what they are talking about.

It appears that I have confused the function of the master cylinder with that of the booster.

Any swaps that were done and referenced by me were probably more in-depth than I understood.

Thanks for the explanation.

Christian

[Materdaddy]

Master cylinders have no power, they are not rated by power and without a pushing source such as a high leverage brake pedal, vacuum booster, or hydroboost, are naught more than inert pieces of scrap metal and rubber. Masters are rated by stroke and bore size and typically the stroke is adequate across all the various models that the only real criteria we need to concern ourself with is bore size.

Generally speaking with all other things being equal, if you "upgrade" the bore size and make it larger, you will decrease line pressure to the calipers and increase pedal height and pedal input pressure to achieve the same line pressure. In short, you wind up with a very high hard pedal and no braking ability.



Brake systems all succumb to the same simple rules of hydraulics. No more, no less. It may be that the Scramblers had too small of a bore size to start, or someone swapped on larger bore calipers and didn't say anything.



I've taken the TJ master with a Dakota booster behind it and generated 2850 psi line pressure to the calipers. To put that in perspective, High Performance Wilwood brakes only like to see 1000-1200 psi, a high performance hydroboost puts out 2900 psi with a 1" master, and the stock booster on a TJ is capable of 15-1700 psi.

I swapped in a Durango Master with a 1 1/16" bore to drop the line pressure and improve the pedal feel and still get over 2400 psi.

I love posts like this. Thanks MrBlaine. Learning is fun.

(No, that's not sarcasm, I'm a nerd and like learning).