TJ front D44 build Qs?

[miguelitojeep97]

woa woa there guys. I know you have great points but i thought i basically said i was going to just do an HP 30 and be done for a while. I know you can make bullet proof stuff and different people have different preferences. Well I guess thanks for the help and....

DING DING round 15....

[peteyg]

Apples to apples, they are cheaper than the two bearings, seal, spindle nuts, spindle and bearing hub that the locking hub set-up uses.

I can do all new seals and bearings, including spindle nuts, on a dana 44, both sides, for less than the cost of one single unit bearing. Bearings: $~40/side, seals, $5/side, nuts $10. So, for about $100 I can have all new seals and bearings, with new spindle nuts, even. Seeing as how a new Unit Bearing is ~180 per side, I'm WAY ahead. IF I need to get spindles, I can find them in several junkyards for about $15ea. I'm still ahead.

How often do you see the actuall bearing hub fail? Never happens. So take that out of the equation.

Do you think your 55K was above, below, or average mileage for a unitbearing? I see them going much further pretty frequently. Enough so that you mileage seems very low.

I have seen them go out on several vehicles well before 100K miles, mostly on TJs and XJs. I know one guy who didn't get 50K out of his (on an XJ). These were all wheeled vehicles, but again, since we're wheelers, it's a good comparison. You claim that your style of wheeling is what saves your parts. I assert that you are just extending the ineveitable, but that's a good practice. I wheeled the crap out of my Dana 30 for YEARS before I started getting to a level where it started breaking. If you are being so careful that you don't break, then good for you.

And, if your spindle nuts back off ever so slightly, instead of replacing a unitized bearing assembly, you have the potential to replace the bearings, seal, and spindle if you're lucky.

Your scenario of a spindle nut backing off is indicative of an improper assembly, and if that's the case, you shouldn't be working on your own stuff. I have never had this issue, and I do this professionally. It is rather tricky of you to try to make your argument by introducing a scenario where an assembly has to be IMPROPERLY configured in order to match the normal wear and tear of the other item being compared.

There's enough empirical data available from folks who have switched from unit bearings to hubs to show the drag is simply a non issue in any of the aspects you mentioned. Yes, it may reduce gas mileage, but by such a small amount as to not even be a factor.

The only reason worthwhile to switch to hubs on a street rig is to let caster take precedence over pinion angle.

Granted it's a small difference, but it does reduce wear, and even though, technically it shouldn't matter that you have a hard locker up front, I noticed a huge difference when I went to hubs in the steering and handling of the vehicle, especially when making very tight turns.

You must run spindle nuts or your wheel will fly off with locking hubs. What's your point? Stub axles rarely break, so much so that I'm 100 percent confident that they won't.

I wouldn't be so confident. They do break, but more to the point, I'll describe exactly what happened to me.

In a notch at Truckhaven one day I had a catastrophic break. We'll set the reasons for the break to the side for the moment. When I broke, I wound up breaking the front short side inner axle. Bummer, but Warn has a good warranty, and I got a new one. BUT. I had to drive back to camp with that broken axle flopping around in the tube. THAT was not so good. It caused significatly more damage, and wound up taking out the carrier. Also, it damaged the carrier so badly that I could not get the broken piece of axle shaft out. Also, the damage prevented me from removing the carrier from the housing. SO...

I had to grind my nice expensive 4.88 ring gear flat so I could remove the cross pin so I could stick a pipe through the long side and hammer the broken piece of axle out of the carrier. So, because I could not just unlock the hubs and prevent the axle from turning, I caused significantly more damage than would otherwise have occurred. Instead of just a broken axle, now I had a broken axle, a destroyed carrier, and a wasted set of gears.

Now, if I would have had hubs, this would not have been an issue. Lets even assume that I had flanges (which I don't, but for the sake of argument). I could simply remove the hub/flange and disengage the axle. OR, lets say the rear driveshaft failed at the same time, and I needed to get out on front drive (which DID happen). I could just remove the entire axle assembly and reassemble the hub without an axle in it and get back. Now, you might say, just remove the axle, disassemble the ujoint, and put the stub back in. In my case, that's an impossibility because I run CTMs. That requires a press, a good set of snap ring pliers, and a lot of patience. It is very difficult to disassemble one of those on the trail.

There are so many exceptions to that statement it almost requires a seperate sheet of paper. Do you really think I can't get a unitbearing rig home with just a bit more work?

A bit more work, sure, but with a LOT more damage. YMMV.

The bottom line, again, is that both have their place and to blanketly recommend one over the other without knowing the original poster's needs is negligent or narrow minded.


I guess I can be thankful you aren't slamming balljoints vs kingpins.

I don't have an opinion on kingpin vs. balljoints. But if I did, I'm sure that whatever it was, your's would be different.

However, I did not "blanketly recommend one over the other", and in fact if you had read the entire post, you would have seen that I do know that they have their place. A statement was made that people were slamming Unit bearings without first hand experience. Since I have first hand experience, I shared my views. That you disagree is of absolutely no surprise to me whatsoever. I would have been disappointed, in fact, if you had come back and actually agreed that some of my points have merit, since I have never seen you budge from your set in concrete views on how things should be done based on your exceptionally narrow point of view.

But I can agree to disagree, and don't for a second expect that anything I say will move you from your position or change your point of view. We don't wheel together, and your opinion of me is unimportant.

[mrblaine]

I can do all new seals and bearings, including spindle nuts, on a dana 44, both sides, for less than the cost of one single unit bearing. Bearings: $~40/side, seals, $5/side, nuts $10. So, for about $100 I can have all new seals and bearings, with new spindle nuts, even. Seeing as how a new Unit Bearing is ~180 per side, I'm WAY ahead. IF I need to get spindles, I can find them in several junkyards for about $15ea. I'm still ahead.

How often do you see the actuall bearing hub fail? Never happens. So take that out of the equation.

Unit bearings have come down in price as the demand has increased. I buy name brand Timkens for around 110.

I buy good used with very low miles for much less. Not a consideration for most though.

I have seen them go out on several vehicles well before 100K miles, mostly on TJs and XJs. I know one guy who didn't get 50K out of his (on an XJ). These were all wheeled vehicles, but again, since we're wheelers, it's a good comparison. You claim that your style of wheeling is what saves your parts. I assert that you are just extending the ineveitable, but that's a good practice. I wheeled the crap out of my Dana 30 for YEARS before I started getting to a level where it started breaking. If you are being so careful that you don't break, then good for you.

Is it my style that saves them or yours that destroys them?

Your scenario of a spindle nut backing off is indicative of an improper assembly, and if that's the case, you shouldn't be working on your own stuff. I have never had this issue, and I do this professionally. It is rather tricky of you to try to make your argument by introducing a scenario where an assembly has to be IMPROPERLY configured in order to match the normal wear and tear of the other item being compared.

We both know that again, examples of exceptions to the rule prove the rule. Just because you professionally install them means only that. Not everyone is a professional and achieves the same results. Nothing tricky there, just my practical observations.

Granted it's a small difference, but it does reduce wear, and even though, technically it shouldn't matter that you have a hard locker up front, I noticed a huge difference when I went to hubs in the steering and handling of the vehicle, especially when making very tight turns.

Moot for most. Most hard lockers that I know of don't work unless you apply torque. Freewheeling in the front they are all but invisible.

I wouldn't be so confident.

Why not? Statistically the chances of breaking a stub are practically nil and so small that it really doesn't factor into the decision to use one or the other.

They do break, but more to the point, I'll describe exactly what happened to me.

In a notch at Truckhaven one day I had a catastrophic break. We'll set the reasons for the break to the side for the moment. When I broke, I wound up breaking the front short side inner axle. Bummer, but Warn has a good warranty, and I got a new one. BUT. I had to drive back to camp with that broken axle flopping around in the tube. THAT was not so good. It caused significatly more damage, and wound up taking out the carrier. Also, it damaged the carrier so badly that I could not get the broken piece of axle shaft out. Also, the damage prevented me from removing the carrier from the housing. SO...

I had to grind my nice expensive 4.88 ring gear flat so I could remove the cross pin so I could stick a pipe through the long side and hammer the broken piece of axle out of the carrier. So, because I could not just unlock the hubs and prevent the axle from turning, I caused significantly more damage than would otherwise have occurred. Instead of just a broken axle, now I had a broken axle, a destroyed carrier, and a wasted set of gears.

Now, if I would have had hubs, this would not have been an issue. Lets even assume that I had flanges (which I don't, but for the sake of argument). I could simply remove the hub/flange and disengage the axle. OR, lets say the rear driveshaft failed at the same time, and I needed to get out on front drive (which DID happen). I could just remove the entire axle assembly and reassemble the hub without an axle in it and get back.

Again, an extreme example to prove a point. I don't deny for a second there are situations where hubs downright rule.

Now, you might say, just remove the axle, disassemble the ujoint, and put the stub back in. In my case, that's an impossibility because I run CTMs. That requires a press, a good set of snap ring pliers, and a lot of patience. It is very difficult to disassemble one of those on the trail.

Here's my version of your style. I have removed a CTM from an assembled borrowed set of axles to get myself back on the trail again. In fact with the help of few on here when I blew one on a Rookie Run.

But, I agree it's much easier with a shop press or balljoint press and the right tools.

A bit more work, sure, but with a LOT more damage. YMMV.



I don't have an opinion on kingpin vs. balljoints. But if I did, I'm sure that whatever it was, your's would be different.

You don't know me well enough to say that.

However, I did not "blanketly recommend one over the other", and in fact if you had read the entire post, you would have seen that I do know that they have their place. A statement was made that people were slamming Unit bearings without first hand experience. Since I have first hand experience, I shared my views. That you disagree is of absolutely no surprise to me whatsoever. I would have been disappointed, in fact, if you had come back and actually agreed that some of my points have merit, since I have never seen you budge from your set in concrete views on how things should be done based on your exceptionally narrow point of view.

But I can agree to disagree, and don't for a second expect that anything I say will move you from your position or change your point of view. We don't wheel together, and your opinion of me is unimportant.

Any particular reason you feel the need to try and make this personal?

My views are not set in concrete, you don't even know what they are.

Let me set you straight- I won't run without hubs or drive flanges. They suit my needs and style of wheeling. I need the flexibility they offer for dialing in the rest of my rig.

I've done more hub conversions than should be legal and am a huge fan of them. I like the ease of maintenance, the fact that I can replace only the worn parts and outside of the initial cost, I think they are a great way to go for a lot of folks. I don't think they are for everyone though. Some folks just don't have the mechanical wherewithal to deal with their complexity.


I also run Superior 35 spline alloy outer stubs. What do you figure my chances of breaking that are? Not that it matters though, if I do break it, it's not holding my unitbearing together.

How about that? A unitbearing that runs big axles, won't fall apart if the stub breaks, and accepts either a drive flange or a locking hub. Now that's a real bastard, eh?

[RAT]

If you read between all the BS there is alot of good information here. Otherwise, it's like reading a soap opera...

Rat

[swbooking]

If you read between all the BS there is alot of good information here. Otherwise, it's like reading a soap opera...

Rat

I know isnt it great! I cant get enough, been following this thread for like 3 days! haha

[RatherBeJeeping]

Here's my version of your style. I have removed a CTM from an assembled borrowed set of axles to get myself back on the trail again. In fact with the help of few on here when I blew one on a Rookie Run.

But, I agree it's much easier with a shop press or balljoint press and the right tools.

Carry a ball joint press on an impact gun run off your OBA of choice?

[Materdaddy]

Carry a ball joint press on an impact gun run off your OBA of choice?

mmm.... nice avatar......mmmmm


Oh, and... what he said...

If you read between all the BS there is alot of good information here. Otherwise, it's like reading a soap opera...

Rat

[peteyg]

I know isnt it great! I cant get enough, been following this thread for like 3 days! haha

I'm always good for drama. I get banned on JeepForum every other week. Talk about post nazis.

Hey, btw....

I saw you on the 15 N the other day coming up towards Temecula. My wheels sure do look good on your rig!