TJ front D44 build Qs?

[miguelitojeep97]

So I just came up with this idea and think it might be a descent idea. So right now I have some mild built 44/30 combo but want to get some bigger meats (like everyone does) So im thinking a front 44 would be good for me (being in college and all) So....I also just an entire front 30 assembly sitting in my garage at home. So....do i buy this http://currieenterprises.com/cestore...e.aspx?id=1002 and then build it over summer and slide it under? I mean I was planning on something big this summer, like re-gear and detroit in rear and hopefully tera 4:1. basically set up for 35s. Would this be a descent idea since I could do all the work off the jeep and re-use knuckles and brakes... what would I really have to buy for the axle?

"The Currie-built Dana 44 is an ideal replacement for the stock Jeep DANA 30. This custom-built unit is made-to-order for each customer's specifications and application. It provides a much stronger assembly than the factory frontend. This Dana 44 housing comes built with YJ/TJ style inner knuckles installed. Includes cover and yoke."

maybe have them gear it for me and put a locker in? or i could do that myself. then knuckles, hubs? brakes? axles? steering?

I would like some good feedback please!! thanks




oh!!! and check this out. anyone see this? http://www.off-roadweb.com/tech/0702..._axle_upgrade/

If i wanted to go all out I could do Warn hubs with cj style knuckles, high steer etc... man im going crazy right now
__________________

[Elusive]

I don't know why you'd put the crappy TJ style knuckles on a custom D-44. why not have real D-44 Inner "C"'s installed on the axle and run 5 on 5.5 bolt pattern with nice internal spline hubs?
I built a HP 44 in the front of my TJ and It's holding up very well.

[jimmyrig]

seems as if your links are not linking

[miguelitojeep97]

eh... i think ill wait on doing any big axle swap for a while. I plan on finding an hp 30 to run while im in school making lil cash

[Beat98TJ]

I have a tj knuckled hp 44 in the front of my TJ. It was built by Currie. As long as you get the f-150 center you will be fine.

btw, there is nothing wrong with TJ outers. I have seen many more hubbed 44 failures than unit bearing. When was the last time you saw a tj outer shaft fail for any reason other than the u-joint failing?

[mrblaine]

I don't know why you'd put the crappy TJ style knuckles on a custom D-44.

Because they are cheap, well supported in the aftermarket, and with 35" tires, not much else can or does go wrong.

why not have real D-44 Inner "C"'s installed on the axle and run 5 on 5.5 bolt pattern with nice internal spline hubs?

For starters, there is no such thing as a fake 44 so if there are no fakes, there are no real ones either. You can verify that with Dana if you wanna call them. Ask the for the specs on a "fake" 44 and see what they say.

He already said he was in college and on sort of a budget. Why would you add to his expenses by having him buy new rims?

I built a HP 44 in the front of my TJ and It's holding up very well.

No one's doubting that a HP 44 will hold up to 35's. HP 30's do pretty darn good as well for his tire size, not to mention unitbearings are cheap, alloy axles are easy and not too expensive, and they bolt right in with minimal effort.

[Elusive]

Did I strike a nerve here?

Because they are cheap, well supported in the aftermarket, and with 35" tires, not much else can or does go wrong.

I actually bent my inner C's on my rig when I was running the 30 up front. Between Peteyg and I we broke 2 detroits, 3 chromoly axle shafts, a lock right, 2 sets of gears and several crappy TJ Y style steering drg links.
with the older style truck knuckles, you can run high steer, cheap beefy drag link and tie rod (with much larger tie rod ends). These knuckles are much better supported by the aftermarket, even cheaper, and have been for many years.

For starters, there is no such thing as a fake 44 so if there are no fakes, there are no real ones either. You can verify that with Dana if you wanna call them. Ask the for the specs on a "fake" 44 and see what they say.

Your so defensive. I never said "fake" though you said it 3 times in this sentence. Real, as in strong, not weak, used on 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks kind of C's. The kind that accept decent sized hubs and cheap wheel bearings. These also give you larger brakes.

He already said he was in college and on sort of a budget. Why would you add to his expenses by having him buy new rims?

You can't put decent sized tires on stock wheels with the rediculous backspacing they have (without wheel spacers) and steel wheels are $35 each if you buy them new. He is already talking about having Currie make him an axle, so we aren't talking cheap.

No one's doubting that a HP 44 will hold up to 35's. HP 30's do pretty darn good as well for his tire size, not to mention unitbearings are cheap, alloy axles are easy and not too expensive, and they bolt right in with minimal effort.

My argument was NOT that he should swap out his d-30, it is simply that a custom d-44 with unit bearings is a bad idea. Unit bearings are not cheap, alloy axles are the same price either way, and if you pay for a custom axle, it bolts in the same as well.
If the $$ really is an issue, swapping the 30 out is probably not for him.

[mrblaine]

Did I strike a nerve here?

Not really. I just grow weary of those who think that a couple of cases of folks who abuse there stuff automatically makes their needs the standard for everyone else.

I actually bent my inner C's on my rig when I was running the 30 up front. Between Peteyg and I we broke 2 detroits, 3 chromoly axle shafts, a lock right, 2 sets of gears and several crappy TJ Y style steering drg links.
with the older style truck knuckles, you can run high steer, cheap beefy drag link and tie rod (with much larger tie rod ends). These knuckles are much better supported by the aftermarket, even cheaper, and have been for many years.

Great! You two know how to tear stuff up. Does that mean because the two of you have managed to accumulate more carnage than our entire group has in 5 years that the stuff you were running should be considered crap?

I ran a stock TJ draglink with a ZJ tie rod in JV on 35's for nearly 3 years. Does that make them bulletproof?

Your so defensive. I never said "fake" though you said it 3 times in this sentence.

Cute, it matters not how many times I said it, the fact remains you can't have a real one without there being a fake.

Real, as in strong, not weak, used on 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks kind of C's.

Cool, a 3/4 ton truck running a 44 is dumber than the lp 30 in a TJ.

The kind that accept decent sized hubs and cheap wheel bearings. These also give you larger brakes.

I've been around those larger brakes off the 1/2 ton chevy pick-ups. They ain't all that and a bag of chips. Crappy calipers that are able to be flexed open with the stock TJ master and booster.

You can't put decent sized tires on stock wheels with the rediculous backspacing they have (without wheel spacers) and steel wheels are $35 each if you buy them new. He is already talking about having Currie make him an axle, so we aren't talking cheap.

You buy 35 dollar steel wheels, you deserve them.

My argument was NOT that he should swap out his d-30, it is simply that a custom d-44 with unit bearings is a bad idea. Unit bearings are not cheap, alloy axles are the same price either way, and if you pay for a custom axle, it bolts in the same as well.
If the $$ really is an issue, swapping the 30 out is probably not for him.

I guess I can't play in JV anymore because I run unitbearings on my front.

[Beat98TJ]

Did I strike a nerve here?



I actually bent my inner C's on my rig when I was running the 30 up front. Between Peteyg and I we broke 2 detroits, 3 chromoly axle shafts, a lock right, 2 sets of gears and several crappy TJ Y style steering drg links.
with the older style truck knuckles, you can run high steer, cheap beefy drag link and tie rod (with much larger tie rod ends). These knuckles are much better supported by the aftermarket, even cheaper, and have been for many years.

Well aside from the inner C's, none of the parts you listed have anything to do with unit bearings and TJ/YJ/XJ outers. Sounds like yoou are preaching the same dumbass crap.

[Elusive]

Great! You two know how to tear stuff up. Does that mean because the two of you have managed to accumulate more carnage than our entire group has in 5 years that the stuff you were running should be considered crap?

I didn't say it was crap, I said it's not as desireable as the older style and I listed several reasons why I have this opinion. I posted the carnage report to outline some of the reasons neither of us runs a D-30 anymore.

I ran a stock TJ draglink with a ZJ tie rod in JV on 35's for nearly 3 years. Does that make them bulletproof?

and now you don't becaue it failed.

Cute, it matters not how many times I said it, the fact remains you can't have a real one without there being a fake.

I have been wheeling long enough that when the unit bearing style came out, we didn't call them "real" hubs. Early on, we needed to distinguish the different styles, so we used to say "I have real hubs" or "I have unit bearings".. I suppose this comment was a reflection of that.

Cool, a 3/4 ton truck running a 44 is dumber than the lp 30 in a TJ.

I'm not even sure what your point is here.

I've been around those larger brakes off the 1/2 ton chevy pick-ups. They ain't all that and a bag of chips. Crappy calipers that are able to be flexed open with the stock TJ master and booster.

I'm failing to follow your logic again. Are you saying that the older calipers are inferior to the TJ calipers, are you trying to argue that the TJ calipers are similar size because TJ mast cylinder and booster can power them, or are you implying that perhaps running a TJ brake set on older calipers will somehow force calipers open rather than closed?

You buy 35 dollar steel wheels, you deserve them.

Do they offend you in some way? I'll make the same argument you have been attempting... They have been working great for me for a long time.

I guess I can't play in JV anymore because I run unitbearings on my front.

You are still missing my point. I wouldn't purposefully opt for unit bearings over hubs on an axle that I paid to get cutom built.


RE: Beat98TJ

Well aside from the inner C's, none of the parts you listed have anything to do with unit bearings and TJ/YJ/XJ outers. Sounds like yoou are preaching the same dumbass crap.

the steering parts are by-products of the hub style outers. I'm not sure what "same dumbass crap" you say I am preaching.

[mrblaine]

I didn't say it was crap, I said it's not as desireable as the older style and I listed several reasons why I have this opinion. I posted the carnage report to outline some of the reasons neither of us runs a D-30 anymore.

And of those reasons, which of them are still present in the current 44 you have?

and now you don't becaue it failed.

Nope, never failed. I swapped in a HP 44 with the same inner C's and built crossover steering. Then I took that one out and swapped in a HP 9 with the same inner C's and built crossover steering again.

Then I took that one out and swapped in a unitbearing axle with bigger inner C's.

None of the axles were ever run on smaller than 37" tires, they all lived in JV and I never hurt or damaged an inner C.

I have been wheeling long enough that when the unit bearing style came out, we didn't call them "real" hubs. Early on, we needed to distinguish the different styles, so we used to say "I have real hubs" or "I have unit bearings".. I suppose this comment was a reflection of that.

Fair enough.

I'm not even sure what your point is here.

Size versus intended application. I'm much happier with my front HP Dana 60 on my tow rig than I would have been if it had a 44.

I'm failing to follow your logic again. Are you saying that the older calipers are inferior to the TJ calipers, are you trying to argue that the TJ calipers are similar size because TJ mast cylinder and booster can power them, or are you implying that perhaps running a TJ brake set on older calipers will somehow force calipers open rather than closed?

They are not inferior to the TJ calipers, they are nearly identical in build quality but the pistons are larger and the smaller master from the TJ overpowers them and flexes them open. I have a buddy who has a TJ with the front 44 you are touting and we've measured the flex at over 30 thousandths while trying fix his braking issues.

Do they offend you in some way? I'll make the same argument you have been attempting... They have been working great for me for a long time.

That's wonderful. You're one of the few.

You are still missing my point. I wouldn't purposefully opt for unit bearings over hubs on an axle that I paid to get cutom built.

And that's fine that you wouldn't. I did. I went full custom and ordered unitbearings and would do it again. My point is that there is no single best way to build something regardless of our own narrow experiences. Just because you and a buddy can go trash something, doesn't make it unsuitable for someone else's needs.

My point about the draglink and tie rod was that although I ran it that way for a long time, my driving style promotes less breakage. I like it that way. Your driving style obviously promotes a higher level of breakage and you like it that way.

All we have to do now is find out what driving style the guy who asked the question has and then both of us can make a recommendation based on his needs, not ours.

RE: Beat98TJ


the steering parts are by-products of the hub style outers. I'm not sure what "same dumbass crap" you say I am preaching.

[Beat98TJ]

RE: Beat98TJ


the steering parts are by-products of the hub style outers. I'm not sure what "same dumbass crap" you say I am preaching.

It seems that so many people promote hubs over the "inferior" unit bearings without any real substance behind it. It has been my observation that many fewer unit bearing failures occur than CJ/Waggoneer outers (Or F-150 which seem to do better than the jeep outers). Somehow the unit bearings have an unfounded bad reputation. Many of the people that bad mouth them have not actually run them. It is tiring.

[peteyg]

It seems that so many people promote hubs over the "inferior" unit bearings without any real substance behind it. It has been my observation that many fewer unit bearing failures occur than CJ/Waggoneer outers (Or F-150 which seem to do better than the jeep outers). Somehow the unit bearings have an unfounded bad reputation. Many of the people that bad mouth them have not actually run them. It is tiring.

I've run them, and don't like them, so how about someone who HAS run them badmouthing them?

Here's what I don't like:

1: They are expensive as hell to replace when they wear out

2: They wear out quickly - MUCH faster than wheel bearings in a conventional hub-style bearing setup. BOTH of my unit bearings were shot by 55K miles.

3: When they do wear out, they cause very quirky and sometimes dangerous steering issues, and are a major contributor to death wobble

4: Because you cannot unlock them, they always turn your front driveline, which, while not overly significant, does contribute to increased drag, reduced gas mileage, and shorter life of all related components.

5: When you start making modifications to the drivetrain to increase the off-roadability of the rig, having the front driveline turning at highway speeds can introduce significant vibrations into the drivetrain.

6: You MUST run the stub shaft at least in the bearing or it will come apart.

7: If you break something in the front drivetrain like an axle or locker or R&P, you cannot disengage the front end and drive it home without causing further damage.

8: Did I mention the cost?

These are all issues that I have personally encountered with Unit Bearings. That is not to say, however, that unit bearings do not have their place:

1: It is very convenient to not have to get out and lock your hubs to put it in 4wd.

2: They are significantly easier to work on and replace.

3: They do not require any maintenance.

And, in fact, in a primarily street-driven rig, the unit bearings are superior to the traditional hub-and-bearing setup, just in terms of ease of use and lack of need for periodic maintenance.

You are also making an apples to oranges comparison when you say you see D44 Hubs fail and unit bearings not fail. What you are seeing is the ability to engage 4wd fail. The actual wheel bearings in the hubs typically do not fail. And they certainly do not wear anywhere near as fast as unit bearings, if properly installed.

Also, there are different levels of quality in hubs, while all unit bearings are pretty much equal. What KINDS of hubs did you see fail? Warn standards? Stock hubs? Warn Premiums? Superwinch? Etc. It's hard to make that comparison without knowing all the facts.

[Beat98TJ]

Warn internal premium hubs are the ones I typically see fail. (also early CJ 6 bolt hubs, but I regard them as complete crap)

I put 75 k with 35's on my first set of unit bearings without issue. I only replaced them because a replacement front axle I put in came with them. I still have the originals. My new axle has about 55k on it. I run on the street with 37's and 35's on the trail. I beat the piss out of my Jeep. The unit bearings have remained tight.

[mrblaine]

I've run them, and don't like them, so how about someone who HAS run them badmouthing them?

Here's what I don't like:

1: They are expensive as hell to replace when they wear out

Apples to apples, they are cheaper than the two bearings, seal, spindle nuts, spindle and bearing hub that the locking hub set-up uses.

2: They wear out quickly - MUCH faster than wheel bearings in a conventional hub-style bearing setup. BOTH of my unit bearings were shot by 55K miles.

Do you think your 55K was above, below, or average mileage for a unitbearing? I see them going much further pretty frequently. Enough so that you mileage seems very low.

3: When they do wear out, they cause very quirky and sometimes dangerous steering issues, and are a major contributor to death wobble

And, if your spindle nuts back off ever so slightly, instead of replacing a unitized bearing assembly, you have the potential to replace the bearings, seal, and spindle if you're lucky.

4: Because you cannot unlock them, they always turn your front driveline, which, while not overly significant, does contribute to increased drag, reduced gas mileage, and shorter life of all related components.

There's enough empirical data available from folks who have switched from unit bearings to hubs to show the drag is simply a non issue in any of the aspects you mentioned. Yes, it may reduce gas mileage, but by such a small amount as to not even be a factor.

5: When you start making modifications to the drivetrain to increase the off-roadability of the rig, having the front driveline turning at highway speeds can introduce significant vibrations into the drivetrain.

The only reason worthwhile to switch to hubs on a street rig is to let caster take precedence over pinion angle.

6: You MUST run the stub shaft at least in the bearing or it will come apart.

You must run spindle nuts or your wheel will fly off with locking hubs. What's your point? Stub axles rarely break, so much so that I'm 100 percent confident that they won't.

7: If you break something in the front drivetrain like an axle or locker or R&P, you cannot disengage the front end and drive it home without causing further damage.

There are so many exceptions to that statement it almost requires a seperate sheet of paper. Do you really think I can't get a unitbearing rig home with just a bit more work?

8: Did I mention the cost?

You did, but you failed to compare the total cost.

These are all issues that I have personally encountered with Unit Bearings. That is not to say, however, that unit bearings do not have their place:

1: It is very convenient to not have to get out and lock your hubs to put it in 4wd.

2: They are significantly easier to work on and replace.

3: They do not require any maintenance.

And, in fact, in a primarily street-driven rig, the unit bearings are superior to the traditional hub-and-bearing setup, just in terms of ease of use and lack of need for periodic maintenance.

You are also making an apples to oranges comparison when you say you see D44 Hubs fail and unit bearings not fail. What you are seeing is the ability to engage 4wd fail. The actual wheel bearings in the hubs typically do not fail. And they certainly do not wear anywhere near as fast as unit bearings, if properly installed.

Also, there are different levels of quality in hubs, while all unit bearings are pretty much equal. What KINDS of hubs did you see fail? Warn standards? Stock hubs? Warn Premiums? Superwinch? Etc. It's hard to make that comparison without knowing all the facts.

No, there are different levels of quality in Unit bearings as well.

The bottom line, again, is that both have their place and to blanketly recommend one over the other without knowing the original poster's needs is negligent or narrow minded.

I guess I can be thankful you aren't slamming balljoints vs kingpins.