Times are changing

[avjeepfreek]

My point was that it is not the Spanish speakers that are making these demands . . . it is the Americans who want their money or cheap labor. Have you ever gone to a tourist type vacation spot in another country that a lot of Americans frequent? If so, you may have noticed that many of the signs are in English and many of the employees at the hotels, counters, etc speak English . . . it's the same concept . . . they want your money so they learn your language . . . it's as simple as that.

But, yes they are making those demands! Maybe not in the literal sense but, the fact is that they come here and make no attempt to learn english and have come to expect us to bow down to their needs, pay their way and make their lives easier. This is exactly what our government does for them by demanding that we learn Spanish in schools, or by putting options on the telephone for spanish or english or different menus in restaurants and even instructions for the things we buy in both spanish and english. Do you think Mexico would stand for that if we went over expected the same? Hell no they wouldn't! They'd have us all on the first bus back to the states they could get us on!! Until this country's government faces the problem of "Illegal Immigration" and stands up and tells them to go home we will continue to have the problems we have now!

Now.... I'm all for legal Immigration and I'd even support a very closely monitored "Illegal Alien Workers Program" here in the United States if one could be figured out, which I'm sure it could. But it starts by giving the boot to all those that are not here legally, locking the gate and starting over.

[cmjrfan8]

I'm still waiting for someone to post something about the "NWO"

Lets get this thing going man. We can't have a politicaly charged thread with someone bringing up the "NWO"

Thank god I wore my "A.F.D.B." to work today.

[womb raider 940]

I'm still waiting for someone to post something about the "NWO"

Lets get this thing going man. We can't have a politicaly charged thread with someone bringing up the "NWO"

Thank god I wore my "A.F.D.B." to work today.

[cmjrfan8]

Touché

[Schmo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max7
Are we talking about the same ILLEGAL Spanish-speaking peoples with no apparent interest in real assimilation, no visible interest in playing by the rules, let alone paying taxes.

There's no stereo typing going on in that statement! Who do you think pays for things such as Medical and Welfare??? The tax paying, legalized citizens of this country do! "Your Killin me smalls!" You don't have a clue what your talking about!

Stereotypes are defined in a number of ways:
1. A simplified and fixed image of all members of a culture or group (based on race, religion, ethnicity, age, gender, national origins)
2. Generalizations about people that are based on limited, sometimes inaccurate, information (from such sources as television, cartoons or comic books, minimal contact with one or more members of the group, second-hand information)
3. Initial predictions about strangers based on incomplete information about their culture, race, religion, or ethnicity
4. A single statement or attitude about a group of people that does not recognize the complex, multidimensional nature of human beings
5. Broad categories about people that fail to differentiate among individuals, peoples, and societies
6. Identification of easily observable characteristics of groups of people

The assumption that all "illegal" Spanish speaking people have "no apparent interest in real assimilation, no visible interest in playing by the rules, let alone paying taxes", strikes me as blatantly stereotypical, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree . . . no biggie.

I get it! You'd rather make the attempt to try and make nonsense out of someone else's comments to try and make yourself look smart.

Do you really? Maybe we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this point too!

Yea, I read it! So, let me get this straight.... Your saying, because I'm the supervisor of a company and I have spanish speaking employees or my company caters to spanish speaking individuals, I should have to learn their language to get the job done or get replaced by someone that does! Oh, I don't think so..... They are coming to this country, be it "illegal or not" they should have to speak English period!

We are in AMERICA, and we speak ENGLISH here!

You are getting much closer . . . I’m not saying that you “should have to learn their language”, I’m simply pointing out that most companies that cater to Spanish speaking individuals or have Spanish speaking employees will most likely look to hire employees and managers that are able to communicate with the customers that they cater to or the employees that they manage. The other option would be to not cater your business to Spanish speakers or to hire employees that speak English . . . but this might be a bit difficult if you decide to open up a store in let’s say Pacoima or East LA where most of your customers speak Spanish, or if you plan on paying your employees $5 an hour under the table to pick fruit and the only ones willing to do the job happen to only speak Spanish. Nonsense, right?

But, yes they are making those demands! Maybe not in the literal sense but, the fact is that they come here and make no attempt to learn english and have come to expect us to bow down to their needs, pay their way and make their lives easier. This is exactly what our government does for them by demanding that we learn Spanish in schools, or by putting options on the telephone for spanish or english or different menus in restaurants and even instructions for the things we buy in both spanish and english. Do you think Mexico would stand for that if we went over expected the same? Hell no they wouldn't! They'd have us all on the first bus back to the states they could get us on!! Until this country's government faces the problem of "Illegal Immigration" and stands up and tells them to go home we will continue to have the problems we have now!

Sounds like we might agree on something . . . well kinda!!! What do you think would happen if America didn’t teach Spanish in schools, or have Spanish options on the phone, or instructions in Spanish, etc . . . my guess is that the Spanish speakers would do exactly what folks coming from Italy, India, Nigeria, China, Vietnam, etc have done for generations . . . they’d learn English! We’ve created the problem or at least allowed this to happen by our actions. It appears as if you view making no attempt to learn English as a demand that we learn Spanish where I view this more as them simply taking advantage of the situation we’ve created or allowed. If you moved to Japan and were able to get everything you needed accomplished in English, would learning Japanese be a priority? When my mother came to America (legally btw) she didn’t speak a word of English . . . and guess what, no one bothered to try to accommodate her or learn her language . . . so she learned English. Pure nonsense . . . I know!!!

[tiny terror]

My great-gran never spoke a word of English. She wasn't so bad... for a Russian. Just sayin'.

[Materdaddy]

you know, the aswer to the 'who's going to do these jobs?' used to be "high school & colledge kids" back in the days when they would actually work their way through school instead of burdening their future with loans before they even have jobs. If you think these young adults are too good to do these jobs, it's because they havent gotten off the teet yet and still live at home with mom & dad. Don't forget that these service industry jobs were never ment to support a family and let people buy houses, they are part time positions to give school kids spending money, nothing more. The idea that these jobs should provide a living wage and health benifits sickens me! Who whould have thought that people would shoot so low and try to sustain a family by flippin' burgers or working at the movie theatre? Do the employers want to apy low wages for these menial jobs? you bet they do. Are there plenty of citizens to do the work that needs to be done? Yes there are! Don't tell us that we can't have hand picked fruit and veggies and clean hotel rooms without hiring people that are in violation of federal law to do so!

still waiting for a counter...

Well said Jesse! :thumbs_up No counter here, only praise and a couple more things to add...

One of the things that always gets me... people try to say "without the illegals, who would do job X?".... like Jesse pointed out, the people who used to. My cousins used to make beds at the local hotels, I used to mow lawns as a kid, and my great-grandparents had "litters" of kids (ok, not litters, but when there's 10 kids... c'mon) to help harvest the farm.

What happened to kids mowing the neighborhood lawns for money? Now kids expect to be inside all the time playing videogames and getting fat.

The other major thing that's always gotten to me in the immigration argument is the lame point of "what about all you white European immigrants? you came here at some point too".

They called America the "melting pot". My family did what most early European immigrant families did, which was assimilate. That was a top priority, and first on the list to assimilate was learn English. The problem is nobody wants to "melt" anymore. Remembering your culture is one thing, but not learning the American culture (including the English language) when you emigrate here is absurd.

[OU812]

Companies in the "free market" American economy will do what is best for themselves. If they will make more money by hiring Spanish speaking employees or packaging their products in a way that will attract Spanish speakers, they will. And as displeased with that as I am I have to admit that I might make that same decision. However, I do find fault in the US Government for catering to any language other than English. The only Government Documents that should be offered bilingually should be instructions on how to become a US citizen.
-Scott

[Materdaddy]

Companies in the "free market" American economy will do what is best for their companies. If they will make more money by hiring Spanish speaking employees or packaging their products in a way that will attract Spanish speakers, they will. And as displeased with that as I am I have to admit that I might make that same decision. However, I do find fault in the US Government for catering to any language other than English. The only Government Documents that should be offered bilingually should be instructions on how to become a US citizen.
-Scott

That makes me think of another problem I thing exists with immigration... How hard it is to LEGALLY become a citizen. One of the major reasons so many people come here illegally is because it is far too complicated to come legally. I think there needs to be major changes to the immigration system to make it much easier for people from other countries to come here legally. That being said, it is not an excuse, nor does it make it right, to come here illegally. It just means I understand why many of them do what they do.

[RAT]

That makes me think of another problem I thing exists with immigration... How hard it is to LEGALLY become a citizen. One of the major reasons so many people come here illegally is because it is far too complicated to come legally. I think there needs to be major changes to the immigration system to make it much easier for people from other countries to come here legally. That being said, it is not an excuse, nor does it make it right, to come here illegally. It just means I understand why many of them do what they do.

You don't think that there is a reason it's tough to become and American citizen? Why don't we just make the test something like, what color is the White House? Will that make this any better? Instead of letting in anyone with a heartbeat, why not find the people who REALLY want to be here, are willing to get their hands dirty and help this country? Is that such a bad thing? Or are we supposed to just give away our hard earned salaries to welfare, free medical care for illegals, food stamps, etc? And that's just a very short list of the programs illegals have unfetted access to.

Just a thought?

Oh, and Schmo, Ya damn right I lump 'em all together in one group. They are here illegally, correct? That's a common thread as far as I can tell. Thus, the LUMP...

[Max7]

Ya damn right I lump 'em all together in one group. They are here illegally, correct? That's a common thread as far as I can tell. Thus, the LUMP...

Hear, Hear!
Best, Max7

[Schmo]

You don't think that there is a reason it's tough to become and American citizen?

- Absolutely there's a reason . . . the system is broken. Even the folks that are here legally often times have to wait months or years to receive work authorization.

Why don't we just make the test something like, what color is the White House?

– I’m pretty sure tough questions like that are reserved for our college admittance tests!

Will that make this any better?

- Hmmm...people here legally, paying taxes on their income, and provided with the opportunity to improve their station in life . . . seems like a pretty good start to me.

Instead of letting in anyone with a heartbeat, why not find the people who REALLY want to be here, are willing to get their hands dirty and help this country? Is that such a bad thing?

- Many of these people risked their lives just to get here, work hard labor jobs in fields and factories, etc . . . what makes you believe that they don’t want to be here or won’t get their hands dirty?

Or are we supposed to just give away our hard earned salaries to welfare, free medical care for illegals, food stamps, etc? And that's just a very short list of the programs illegals have unfetted access to.

– I agree with you here, but not just as it relates to “illegals” . . . the whole welfare system needs to be reworked.

Oh, and Schmo, Ya damn right I lump 'em all together in one group. They are here illegally, correct? That's a common thread as far as I can tell. Thus, the LUMP...

Hear, Hear!
Best, Max7

-It’s not the lumping ‘em all together under the heading of illegal that I disagree with . . . that’s a pretty cut and dry issue . . . you are here legally or you are not. It’s the stereotyping that I disagree with and the assumptions that all “illegals”, according to you, “haven't so much as lifted a finger, but come here looking for a free ride given to them” . . . or according to Max, “have no apparent interest in real assimilation, no visible interest in playing by the rules, let alone paying taxes. I’ve met far too many “illegals” who don’t come close to fitting into those categories to believe that crap. I don’t expect to change your mind.

[Materdaddy]

You don't think that there is a reason it's tough to become and American citizen? Why don't we just make the test something like, what color is the White House? Will that make this any better? Instead of letting in anyone with a heartbeat, why not find the people who REALLY want to be here, are willing to get their hands dirty and help this country? Is that such a bad thing? Or are we supposed to just give away our hard earned salaries to welfare, free medical care for illegals, food stamps, etc? And that's just a very short list of the programs illegals have unfetted access to.

Just a thought?

Oh, and Schmo, Ya damn right I lump 'em all together in one group. They are here illegally, correct? That's a common thread as far as I can tell. Thus, the LUMP...

First things first, you're stretching what I said. I didn't say let's just make it super easy to become a citizen. I don't think the "test" is the "hard" part of becoming a citizen. It's the other red tape, paperwork, and bureaucracy that goes into it. I just said that, in my opinion, the process that's currently in place is too much.

While in school we had many visiting professors, students, etc. In my profession we work with many engineers outside of the US, some of which are trying to get here.

I don't have a bleeding heart for the people coming here illegally, and the people that never have any intention on trying to become a citizen. I do, however, feel sorry for the people who are NOT here and are constantly working on trying to get here, and the people who are here on work visas, sponsorships, etc. and are not getting anywhere due to the horrible red tape they must go through.

One of my professors in college (amazingly intelligent, and a very nice guy) is in the process of becoming a citizen, however when the company I work for now offered him a job, he found out that changing jobs would bump him to the "back of the line" when it comes to citizenship applications. He had to turn down the job and is still trying (after over 5 years) to become a citizen.

I don't want to start a flame war, as it seems everybody on MJR is getting more and more opinionated and stretches everybody's opinions completely out of context. I'm just expressing *MY* view on this thread, and my reasoning behind feeling the way I do.

As I said in my last post though, because it is hard to become a citizen in no way justifies coming here illegally.

[Max7]

Dear Mr. Schmo,

No one is crediting you with the creation of the word, but rather questioning why you felt it was necessary to bring it up . . . certainly you could have made your point without it. Although you may have missed yet another opportunity to post up another of your infamous links with more rhetoric.

There you go again, Joe. You know, before I got back from D.C., you brought attention to my ineffectual ad hominem assaults. I took it to heart and constructively used your criticism to my benefit. Why don't you practice what you preach? I respected what you said and although we may continue to disagree on a ton of issues, it is obvious that you think that your put downs, belittlement, and name calling inherent to your arguments are useful to "win people over"-- unless you are just an agitator.

If we are all arguing to have our valid points heard why not do it with the respect that YOU expect?
I call it as I see it. Can you respect that? Are you capable of an adult conversation without belittlement? it sure would make you seem more credible.

Nope, just you and the others that hold to the same narrow view and feel the need to stereotype. Funny how you make a point about how you abhor racial slurs, but have no apparent issue with the stereotypes that they are linked to.

I have zero issue with stereotypes that are a reality, but, in fact, I have not used them. I care only about our national security and the future for/of my family.

Someone once told me that all laws should be made with the consideration of the next seven generations; I like that idea. What do you think? I think that some day you and I will be great friends cherishing each other for our great struggle to become friends.

I would hope that we all want what is best for our country. People have always had different ways of achieving the goals set forth. If the issues are so black and white that we cannot reach a compromise, what will we do? I am open to continue this debate for our country's future.

Respectfully, Max7

[Schmo]

Max,

I respect your criticism and it is not without truth. Although I’ve been wheeling with you before and had nothing but positive things to say about you after the outing, no one will dispute the fact that you have rubbed me the wrong way with many of your comments. Although I respect your criticism . . . you can pretty much count on some sort of disdain from time to time when you use a common ground, like a Jeep Forum as your political soap box. I can respect you calling it as you see it, but as soon as someone sees it differently you seem to take issue. I’ve admittedly always had a hard time dealing with the “I’m right and everyone else is wrong type of attitude” which is probably why I get a bit passionate when responding to some of your posts. Your reality is not mine. I really don’t care much about “winning people over” . . . I’m not here on any type of crusade, which is probably why I haven’t been too concerned with censoring my comments for the masses as I’d suggested to you after you'd made it clear that you were on a mission. I do find it humorous that you of all people would suggest that I’m just an agitator. Although if you are the one I’m agitating, I guess I’m cool with that . . . an eye for an eye as they say!!! As far as continuing a debate for our country’s future, that’s the thing . . . that’s not why I’m here . . . although I may express my opinion when a topic is brought up, I don’t log on to Jeep forums with the intention of discussing politics.

P.S. – Nice usage of “ad hominem” . . . it’s not everyday you get to use words like that . . . see how rewarding this is!

BTW . . . It's Friday Night and I've been partying so if my comments don't make sense, I'm going to blame it on the Jim Beam in the morning.:devil: